Lynda Franklin
Guest
Never mind .Micheal it isn't worth the bother .I am sorry I brought it up to start with.It was just a silly question on poetry that murdoch wrote but I found the answer.
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Ada Murdoch
- Thread starter Lynda Franklin
- Start date
Michael H. Standart
Member
Lynda, I was speaking to the question of Ada Murdoch having children...a question that was discussed in this thread...which your bit of poetry seemed to speak to. I'm afraid the problem with that quotation was that it decidedly cryptic, so I hope you can see where it might have had some of us a bit confused about your intent.
Lynda Franklin
Guest
Micheal after rereading and seeing it from your vantage point .Yeah cryptic most definately so my apologies, today has not been my day.Sorry for snapping at you.
Michael H. Standart
Member
No big deal, Lynda. Hope things start getting better.
Inger Sheil
Member
Hallo Lynda -
The Mackay poem is a bit mysterious - last I heard, Murdoch researchers were trying to trace the tag, but hadn't yet identified the poem. Perhaps they have since managed to do so.
Mackay himself - as you may be aware - was a controversial figure. While some researchers have read a good deal into Murdoch's decision to cite a few lines of his poetry, it may not necessarily indicate that Murdoch shared Mackay's views. It's a fairly conventional quote, reflecting standard Edwardian values, and Murdoch may have seen it in another context and liked it without having read Mackay extensively.
I know I've got a stock set of quotes I like to use for matters like menus, farewell and birthday cards etc!
The Mackay poem is a bit mysterious - last I heard, Murdoch researchers were trying to trace the tag, but hadn't yet identified the poem. Perhaps they have since managed to do so.
Mackay himself - as you may be aware - was a controversial figure. While some researchers have read a good deal into Murdoch's decision to cite a few lines of his poetry, it may not necessarily indicate that Murdoch shared Mackay's views. It's a fairly conventional quote, reflecting standard Edwardian values, and Murdoch may have seen it in another context and liked it without having read Mackay extensively.
I know I've got a stock set of quotes I like to use for matters like menus, farewell and birthday cards etc!
Lynda Franklin
Guest
I am still trying to find it too I jumped the gun.I found something similiar but wasn't even close .So I am doublely embarrassed today.
sharon rutman
Guest
I just finished reading Murdoch's biography on the Dalbeattie website and found myself fascinated by the unconventional marriage of Ada and William Murdoch. For one thing William Murdoch married a much more mature woman who was fairly well established with a career of her own. Once a woman was past 30 back in the early 1900's the prospects of her ever being married were slim to none. Usually, an older woman past her 30th birthday was doomed to a lonely life of wretched spinsterhood.
Even more unusual was William Murdoch was most understanding and considerate over the fact that for whatever the reason, he and Ada were not going to have any children. That, too, defied the normal conventions of the time--after marriage, a woman surrendered her identity and dutifully produced one baby after another. According to the website, Ada continued working as a teacher for quite some time.
Wow, the Murdochs were way ahead of their time! Their relationship was actually quite a FEMINIST ONE (uh-oh, I've uttered a dirty word there) Well good for William and Ada Murdoch--they dared to be different without even knowing it.
Even more unusual was William Murdoch was most understanding and considerate over the fact that for whatever the reason, he and Ada were not going to have any children. That, too, defied the normal conventions of the time--after marriage, a woman surrendered her identity and dutifully produced one baby after another. According to the website, Ada continued working as a teacher for quite some time.
Wow, the Murdochs were way ahead of their time! Their relationship was actually quite a FEMINIST ONE (uh-oh, I've uttered a dirty word there) Well good for William and Ada Murdoch--they dared to be different without even knowing it.
Michael H. Standart
Member
I don't know if I'd call it so much "feminist" as I would call it progressive. Sounds to me like they just went ahead and did their own thing and let convention attend to itself. For them, it worked and that's all that matters.
sharon rutman
Guest
It's a shame they weren't married very long--their marriage lasted about 4 1/2 years from 1907 to 1912.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>It's a shame they weren't married very long<<
All the more so since it was a genuine love match. While that sort of thing was far from unknown in that day, it wasn't anywhere near as common as it is today.
All the more so since it was a genuine love match. While that sort of thing was far from unknown in that day, it wasn't anywhere near as common as it is today.
sharon rutman
Guest
Remember, even William and Ada's courtship was even all the more touching because alot of it was done through snail mail. Communications were painfully slow and the phrase "you've got mail" took on special meaning because it could take a couple of months for letters to arrive. Any sort of letter back then was very precious since parties had to wait so long for them.
X----- X-------
Member
One doesn't get the chance or time anymore -- in fact there's hardly enough hours in the day for me.
I have never seen this thread until now. So all I can say Inger is I am sorry that I didn't come to your rescue beforehand.
Getting back to Inger's message of the 6th of Nov 2006.
Off the top of my head Ada Murdock did receive a large amount from the Relief Fund as her last settlement before she returned back to her homeland and spent the rest of her years with her immediate family. I know the Mansion House directive does survive and can be viewed at Southampton Archives.
The finical figure was exceptionally high, to such a degree I was knock sideways at how much she agreed as her final and last payment from the National Disasters Relief Fund. I am almost sure the amount reached into many hundred's if not a few thousand quid.
Ing -- I am planning to call down at Southampton Archives the week before the Christmas holidays commence. Once I've found the Mansion House document then I can give you the actual amount involved.
Otherwise I can find no fault with your accurate report of her payments from the Relief Fund.
A.W.
I have never seen this thread until now. So all I can say Inger is I am sorry that I didn't come to your rescue beforehand.
Getting back to Inger's message of the 6th of Nov 2006.
Off the top of my head Ada Murdock did receive a large amount from the Relief Fund as her last settlement before she returned back to her homeland and spent the rest of her years with her immediate family. I know the Mansion House directive does survive and can be viewed at Southampton Archives.
The finical figure was exceptionally high, to such a degree I was knock sideways at how much she agreed as her final and last payment from the National Disasters Relief Fund. I am almost sure the amount reached into many hundred's if not a few thousand quid.
Ing -- I am planning to call down at Southampton Archives the week before the Christmas holidays commence. Once I've found the Mansion House document then I can give you the actual amount involved.
Otherwise I can find no fault with your accurate report of her payments from the Relief Fund.
A.W.
Inger Sheil
Member
Hallo Andrew - good to see you again, and to read about your continued work in the area of the relief funds. I believe you're correct - she was initially given an allowance of 2 pound a week. Stormer has written that in 1927 the Relief Fund reviewed her payments, and although they decided on that occasion not to stop the payments this decision was reversed in 1929.
Ada does indeed seem to have been an independent, intelligent woman - she may have been a first wave feminist, although there is not enough data extant on her political or philosophical beliefs to draw such conclusions, and we can only deduce certain possibilities. She came from one of the more progressive political milieus for woman at that time - New Zealand lead the world in granting women's suffrage in 1893. I find it interesting that she seems to have had a rapport with William's sister, Margaret ("Peg"). Peg was rather a bluestocking - she was a comparatively early graduate of Edinburgh University, which had started admitting female students in 1892.
We do need to keep in mind that there is a paucity of direct evidence regarding William and Ada - there is a terrible temptation to fill the gaps with inference, and while speculation as to their characters and relationship is interesting, we do need to keep in mind that some of the speculation is rather tenuous.
Take, for instance, the idea that Murdoch was unusually progressive in having a wife who continued to work after their marriage. If she did indeed do so, it would possibly be an interesting insight into their characters. Even as late as the 20s, when more career options were open to women, it was often considered unusual for women to keep working after marriage. Grace Lager, for example, uses the example of her grandmother having to conceal her marriage so she could continue to teach in her feminist study Posing a Threat: Flappers, Chorus Girls, and Other Brazen Performers of the American 1920s (the gig was up when she became pregnant with their first child).
However, it has not yet been established whether Ada Murdoch did continue to teach - this seems to be a rather vague oral tradition. The last I heard, Murdoch researchers were still attempting to establish whether there was any record of her teaching during her marriage - so far, they had found no documentary evidence to collaborate the story. Hopefully something has turned up recently, but I haven't heard of that happening.
Ada does indeed seem to have been an independent, intelligent woman - she may have been a first wave feminist, although there is not enough data extant on her political or philosophical beliefs to draw such conclusions, and we can only deduce certain possibilities. She came from one of the more progressive political milieus for woman at that time - New Zealand lead the world in granting women's suffrage in 1893. I find it interesting that she seems to have had a rapport with William's sister, Margaret ("Peg"). Peg was rather a bluestocking - she was a comparatively early graduate of Edinburgh University, which had started admitting female students in 1892.
We do need to keep in mind that there is a paucity of direct evidence regarding William and Ada - there is a terrible temptation to fill the gaps with inference, and while speculation as to their characters and relationship is interesting, we do need to keep in mind that some of the speculation is rather tenuous.
Take, for instance, the idea that Murdoch was unusually progressive in having a wife who continued to work after their marriage. If she did indeed do so, it would possibly be an interesting insight into their characters. Even as late as the 20s, when more career options were open to women, it was often considered unusual for women to keep working after marriage. Grace Lager, for example, uses the example of her grandmother having to conceal her marriage so she could continue to teach in her feminist study Posing a Threat: Flappers, Chorus Girls, and Other Brazen Performers of the American 1920s (the gig was up when she became pregnant with their first child).
However, it has not yet been established whether Ada Murdoch did continue to teach - this seems to be a rather vague oral tradition. The last I heard, Murdoch researchers were still attempting to establish whether there was any record of her teaching during her marriage - so far, they had found no documentary evidence to collaborate the story. Hopefully something has turned up recently, but I haven't heard of that happening.
sharon rutman
Guest
Well I'll take at face value the information on Dalbeattie's website that Ada Murdoch pursued her teaching career after her marriage and let it go at that. (www.dalbeattie.com)
Inger Sheil
Member
You may want to do some more research, Sharon - it's not a good idea to take a secondary source at face value.
Here's what the website says:
This is, as yet, unconfirmed by official documentation (as far as I know - there may have been more recent progress made). Although there have been efforts made by some very fine Murdoch researchers to find a record of Ada teaching during her marriage, this evidence has thus far proved elusive.
We may yet have answers - perhaps these posts will prompt someone to check more local sources, or perhaps we'll find out more when the 1911 Census is released. Until independent verification can be found, however, it's best to keep in mind that this is unsubstantiated rumour.
Here's what the website says:
Note that Richard says there were "reports" - he does not present the information as an objective fact, but rather makes a comment that reflects the actual situation - that there is an oral tradition to that effect.
This is, as yet, unconfirmed by official documentation (as far as I know - there may have been more recent progress made). Although there have been efforts made by some very fine Murdoch researchers to find a record of Ada teaching during her marriage, this evidence has thus far proved elusive.
We may yet have answers - perhaps these posts will prompt someone to check more local sources, or perhaps we'll find out more when the 1911 Census is released. Until independent verification can be found, however, it's best to keep in mind that this is unsubstantiated rumour.
