sharon rutman
Guest
Ok Inger i defer to you--recommend some books for me. Here in the States we can't get a hold of the necessary Titanic related research materials and I'm not going to risk having this thread shut down--it's too important.
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Ada Murdoch
- Thread starter Lynda Franklin
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Inger Sheil
Member
See if you can get ahold of Susanne Stormer's works, Sharon - they're very hagiographical, but they represent much of what is known about William and Ada (be wary of the inferences she draws, though - she has filled in many of the gaps caused by lack of evidence with speculation). Elizabeth Gibbons also wrote an excellent ms that has never been published in full, although the research has now been superseded in some parts - its almost impossible to get ahold of, but it is beautifully, elegantly written.
Good researchers to contact would include UK-based Jenni Atkinson, who is also a member of this board (although she may not have logged in for a while) - while a warm admirer of Murdoch, she is also an very objective and talented researcher who has conducted her own work on Murdoch for over 30 years. She is very familiar with seafaring, an experienced square rig sailor (she wrote a very well-received book about one of her voyages many years ago) and has a wonderful collection of material, much of which has never been published.
Good researchers to contact would include UK-based Jenni Atkinson, who is also a member of this board (although she may not have logged in for a while) - while a warm admirer of Murdoch, she is also an very objective and talented researcher who has conducted her own work on Murdoch for over 30 years. She is very familiar with seafaring, an experienced square rig sailor (she wrote a very well-received book about one of her voyages many years ago) and has a wonderful collection of material, much of which has never been published.
sharon rutman
Guest
I tried that on Ebay and Amazon but I had no luck. This is where I think we have so much trouble--research material that's readily available in one place may be impossible elsewhere. Sometimes you have to take whatever you can get even if it is at face value.
Inger Sheil
Member
Unfortunately not every source is easily available, Sharon - these books are self-published, and out of print, so are not readily available anywhere. The Gibbons ms was never published in full and is extremely rare. In addition, some researchers who have the most data - acquiried through their original work - have not published all their material.
This discussion illustrates some of the problems facing researchers today, with so much information available on the net, but not all of it with cites that enable verification of data. I know Richard, the author of the Dalbeattie site, quite well - I've even met him in person when visiting Dalbeattie and I've had the opportunity to discuss the website with him. He is a charming individual who is keenly interested in history, and who has a strong desire to tell Murdoch's story. I also know his sources - he has consulted Jenni Atkinson, for example, as well as Stormer's first book Goodbye, Good Luck, Elizabeth Gibbons' ms, some of Diana Bristow's published material, and other researchers...in particular a local man who has a tremendous store of knowledge about the Solway Firth and its mariners.
The site is, in many ways, a work in progress (although I know that Richard is very busy and I think hasn't had a chance to complete all the updates and corrections he wished to make). It is also a secondary source - without the cite of a primary source, taking a statement and building conjecture upon it must be done with caveats. Richard himself does not present the idea that Ada continued to work as objective fact - he refers to "reports".
Secondary sources on the internet, like elsewhere, should be a starting point - not the end point. That is why many academic institutions do not allow cites from Wikipedia (or any encyclopedia, for that matter), but they do encourage students to follow up on the primary sources cited by Wiki. Richard's site is one of the better Titanic sites around, although it has generated its share of controversy, but with so many other dodgy sites that make thoroughly innacurate, unsubstantiated statements about figures involved in the disaster, it pays for any serious researcher to be cautious. Taking unreferenced statements to a discussion forum like this and seeking input is a good start to analysing them - in this case, for example, I happen to know that Murdoch researchers have attempted to verify the schoolteaching story, and have been unable to do so to date.
This discussion illustrates some of the problems facing researchers today, with so much information available on the net, but not all of it with cites that enable verification of data. I know Richard, the author of the Dalbeattie site, quite well - I've even met him in person when visiting Dalbeattie and I've had the opportunity to discuss the website with him. He is a charming individual who is keenly interested in history, and who has a strong desire to tell Murdoch's story. I also know his sources - he has consulted Jenni Atkinson, for example, as well as Stormer's first book Goodbye, Good Luck, Elizabeth Gibbons' ms, some of Diana Bristow's published material, and other researchers...in particular a local man who has a tremendous store of knowledge about the Solway Firth and its mariners.
The site is, in many ways, a work in progress (although I know that Richard is very busy and I think hasn't had a chance to complete all the updates and corrections he wished to make). It is also a secondary source - without the cite of a primary source, taking a statement and building conjecture upon it must be done with caveats. Richard himself does not present the idea that Ada continued to work as objective fact - he refers to "reports".
Secondary sources on the internet, like elsewhere, should be a starting point - not the end point. That is why many academic institutions do not allow cites from Wikipedia (or any encyclopedia, for that matter), but they do encourage students to follow up on the primary sources cited by Wiki. Richard's site is one of the better Titanic sites around, although it has generated its share of controversy, but with so many other dodgy sites that make thoroughly innacurate, unsubstantiated statements about figures involved in the disaster, it pays for any serious researcher to be cautious. Taking unreferenced statements to a discussion forum like this and seeking input is a good start to analysing them - in this case, for example, I happen to know that Murdoch researchers have attempted to verify the schoolteaching story, and have been unable to do so to date.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>I tried that on Ebay and Amazon but I had no luck.<<
Sharon, you may want to have a crack at ABEBooks or some of the other used book networks. With self-published books that are out of print, it might be the only realistic possibility of getting some of this material.
I have a copy of Susanne Stormer's work and it's a cracking good read. You do need to be careful with it for the reasons that Inger stated, but short of getting your hands on some primary sources, it's going to be tough to find much of anything else out there.
More's the pity since Will Murdoch deserves better then to end up as a footnote in the Titanic saga.
Sharon, you may want to have a crack at ABEBooks or some of the other used book networks. With self-published books that are out of print, it might be the only realistic possibility of getting some of this material.
I have a copy of Susanne Stormer's work and it's a cracking good read. You do need to be careful with it for the reasons that Inger stated, but short of getting your hands on some primary sources, it's going to be tough to find much of anything else out there.
More's the pity since Will Murdoch deserves better then to end up as a footnote in the Titanic saga.
sharon rutman
Guest
Would a google search help? That's how I found that Dalbeattie web site-I was actually surprised to find out Murdoch's hometown was online. It's actually very good--the usual things to see and do, town history, and of course, a biography of the hometown hero William Murdoch. Yes Murdoch does deserve better--that's why I started that thread about the shabby, negative images of him on stage and screen.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>Would a google search help?<<
Maybe.
I'm not offering any gaurantees on that. If it doesn't get you the book, it may offer the names of services such as bookfinder, ABEbooks, and Alibris which specialize in that sort of thing. I'd try the used book services first, but if there's an online listing somewhere, Google may very well dig it up for you and save you some legwork.
Maybe.
I'm not offering any gaurantees on that. If it doesn't get you the book, it may offer the names of services such as bookfinder, ABEbooks, and Alibris which specialize in that sort of thing. I'd try the used book services first, but if there's an online listing somewhere, Google may very well dig it up for you and save you some legwork.
Tracy Smith
Member
Getting back to the issue of the Murdochs not having children, it could also be possible that they decided not to have any or to put it off, thinking they had time in the future to have kids? Maybe, like Stanley Lord, he wanted to put off starting a family until he'd gotten his own command?
For as little as he got to see her during their short marriage, it would seem as if condoms would have been adequate birth control for them.
For as little as he got to see her during their short marriage, it would seem as if condoms would have been adequate birth control for them.
Inger Sheil
Member
You're right, Tracy - there could be a number of reasons that they did not have children. Ada was getting to an age where conception and childbirth would be more difficult, but some women did continue to have children into their 30s. With a lack of real evidence (e.g. letters) all we can do is speculate. There is a hearsay tradition that Ada did state in later life that her only regret about her marriage to William was that they had no children, but there could be a number of interpretations as to why that came about.
Wilde was rather the exception among WSL officers in that he married quite young and had a large family while he was still working his way up the career ladder. Boxhall, Pitman and Lowe were all thirty or more when they married.
Be warned - if you do find a copy of one of the books mentioned in this thread, you may find it very expensive...I've seen them go for astronomical prices on eBay (although hopefully we'll see the market drop a bit now).
Personally, the book I'd like to see published is the one by the Dalbeattie researcher I referred to above. His work has been the basis for a lot of the research on Murdoch, but he has not always been fully acknowledged. He was the first to really pull together a list of Murdoch's ships, for example. Richard acknowledges him on the Dalbeattie site.
Lovely part of the world, Dalbeattie - the Solway Firth is quite beautiful in all its moods, and there are local landmarks like the Sweetheart Abbey.
Wilde was rather the exception among WSL officers in that he married quite young and had a large family while he was still working his way up the career ladder. Boxhall, Pitman and Lowe were all thirty or more when they married.
Be warned - if you do find a copy of one of the books mentioned in this thread, you may find it very expensive...I've seen them go for astronomical prices on eBay (although hopefully we'll see the market drop a bit now).
Personally, the book I'd like to see published is the one by the Dalbeattie researcher I referred to above. His work has been the basis for a lot of the research on Murdoch, but he has not always been fully acknowledged. He was the first to really pull together a list of Murdoch's ships, for example. Richard acknowledges him on the Dalbeattie site.
Lovely part of the world, Dalbeattie - the Solway Firth is quite beautiful in all its moods, and there are local landmarks like the Sweetheart Abbey.
sharon rutman
Guest
Remember that Ada married William Murdoch when she was past 30 which was the exception rather than the rule. Women in the early 1900's were expected to marry and have children while they were very very young. Once they hit a certain age, a woman was usually doomed to a wretched life of spinsterhood. Ada broke the mold in another way--she was also a career woman as a teacher and she was blessed with a very understanding spouse.
Inger Sheil
Member
Yes, she was a bit older than the norm for marriage and childbirth (as discussed above). Merchant officers did tend to marry a bit later, though - Ellen Whitehouse was approaching 30 when she married Harold Lowe, for example. Officers established themselves in their career first, then thought of marriage (with exceptions such as Wilde outlined above). Often they might choose a wife considerably younger than themselves, but I've come across many cases when they chose to marry someone closer to their own age.
sharon rutman
Guest
Another consideration of course was money--since two career couples were also the exception rather than the rule these young ambitious officers wanted to make sure that they could support a wife and children before making a lifetime commitment. Also the up and coming officers on the glamorous transatlantic runs wanted to make sure their own futures were secure.
Michael H. Standart
Member
>>Also the up and coming officers on the glamorous transatlantic runs wanted to make sure their own futures were secure.<<
Well that's certainly understandable. Careers were anything but secure, and in the maritime trade, it doesn't take that much to throw a monkey wrench in the works. Anything less then steller performance and you'ed be lucky to get a job as the Chief Manual Bucket Bilge Bailer.
Well that's certainly understandable. Careers were anything but secure, and in the maritime trade, it doesn't take that much to throw a monkey wrench in the works. Anything less then steller performance and you'ed be lucky to get a job as the Chief Manual Bucket Bilge Bailer.
Inger Sheil
Member
Yes, financial considerations are part of what I meant when I spoke about having a well established career as a foundation before one could marry.
The concept is a very old one - Victorian engagements could be interminable, as the male half of the couple strove to get enough capital to have a household establishment.
Harold and Ellen were already engaged at the time of the Titanic disaster - although we don't have an exact date for when they became affianced, it seems to have happened at about the time he joined the WSL. Joining the company seems to have given him enough of a stable future to propose marriage, although he waited another couple of years before they walked down the aisle.
One Murdoch researcher reminded me of an old saying in the British Army that was current in Victorian times: "Subalterns must not marry; Captains may marry; Majors should marry; and Colonels must marry." Life in the merchant navy wasn't quite as regimented, but looking just at the Titanic's deck officers and the dates of their marriage we see a definite trend to later marriage.
The concept is a very old one - Victorian engagements could be interminable, as the male half of the couple strove to get enough capital to have a household establishment.
Harold and Ellen were already engaged at the time of the Titanic disaster - although we don't have an exact date for when they became affianced, it seems to have happened at about the time he joined the WSL. Joining the company seems to have given him enough of a stable future to propose marriage, although he waited another couple of years before they walked down the aisle.
One Murdoch researcher reminded me of an old saying in the British Army that was current in Victorian times: "Subalterns must not marry; Captains may marry; Majors should marry; and Colonels must marry." Life in the merchant navy wasn't quite as regimented, but looking just at the Titanic's deck officers and the dates of their marriage we see a definite trend to later marriage.
Tracy Smith
Member
Stanley Lord courted Mabel Tutton for six years before finally marrying her in 1907 when they were both 30, the year after he'd gotten his first command. From what you're saying Inger, their experience seems to have been the rule, rather than the exception
