After the collision

Michael,

Just wondering, if the Titanic did have plugging kits and trained divers, how would someone be able to get past the immense pressure of incoming water to get to the damage? The only thing I could think of is that someone could throw a rope and attatch it to something and pull your life away. Or would the trick be to get off the ship and repair it from outside? Then the problem would be trying not to get sucked in along with the water.

It's always a treat to have a Navy vet around who knows these things
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Wait hears another thing..... Its pretty out in left feild so to speak but i'll say it any way you guys might have a laugh at it.

What if crew members took waterproof canvas tide weights to the end and threw it over the side were the gash was well was it a gash or...(oh I can't thing of the word help me out Michael or anyone) but any way let it sink and then let the suction get it and pull it flush aganist the hull.
Would it tare or rip I really don't know thats why i'm asking you guys.

OK guys the destruction of my idea comence!
LOL

Thanks,
Dave
 
If wishes were horses, 1,500 people would have galloped to Halifax that night.

All sorts of ideas have been proposed to keep Titanic afloat. They amount to nothing more than wishing for a better outcome after the issue has been decided. That's as useful as hoping the losing team will win a football game a day after the last play. All the wishing in the world won't change the score. Nor will it "save" one more of Titanic's victims.

"If" is one of those weasel words that leads us quickly into flights of fancy--unless we use the word as part of an experiment to learn how to do things better in the future. Asking "what if" Titanic had backed to Halifax, Bellfast, or Liverpool is pointless. But, asking "what if" we add lifeboats and improve the launching apparatus leads to safety improvements.

"Save" is another weasel word. You can't save any lives as all are destined for extinction. What you can do is influence the second date on the tombstone. If 1,500 flying horses had galloped in to rescue the poor souls aboard Titanic, how many eyewitnesses would be alive today? So, no lives would have been "saved," just prolonged.

There is a purpose behind this somewhat strange line of thinking. Improvements in safety do not come when you try to "save everyone." The Grim Reaper will demand his bill once a ship starts to founder with people aboard.

A serious attempt to keep trans-Atlantic passengers alive cannot be concerned with "saving" lives. Instead, it has to start with the concept that no lives should be put into jeopardy in the first place. That's why the International Ice Patrol has been more significant in preventing the early demise of trans-Atlantic passengers than lifeboats.

Lifeboats are simply an inferior second chance at prolonging lives when accident prevention either fails or is overlooked. True, the occupants of a lifeboat presumably do not die when their ship disappears beneath the waves. However, they are far from "saved." Imagine bobbing around in one of the modern encapsulated plastic bottles while sitting cheek-to-cheek with a bunch of other frightened people. Oh, and add the stench of vomit. Now, what if there is a force 9 gale and it's impossible to take people off your lifeboat and so your orange cocoon drifts away in the crashing sea. Alive? yes. Saved? not yet, maybe not ever.

Back to backing Titanic. Would steaming backwards have prolonged the ship's life? Nobody knows. But, let's say it could have extended the sinking time by 50 percent. In reality that would have meant a time of death for most victims of just before 4 a.m. Not much of an improvement. For a 25-year old, that extra time would have amounted to 0.0000068% of his or her total life. I doubt anyone would have cured cancer, written an immortal sonnet, or painted a new Mona Lisa in that period of time.

So, even a large extension (50%) of the time afloat for Titanic after the accident would have amounted to virtually nothing for the people facing death. In other words, there would have been no discernable benefit for taking the very real risk that backing the ship would more likely have shortened its remaining time afloat.

Here is where the penalty for a bad decision becomes harsh. If Titanic had foundered 50% quicker because it had attempted to steam backwards, then the foundering time would have been around 1:15 a.m. If that had happened, then everyone in the following lifeboats would most likely have perished as there would not have been time to launch: boat #6, 16, 14, 9, 12, 11, 13, 15, 2, 10, 4, C, D, and A.

It's quite obvious that the risk/benefit ratio of attempting to keep afloat by backing the ship leans heavily toward the risk side for little, if any reward. So, even if Captain Smith knew for certain that he could have extended the life of Titanic by 50% after the accident by backing it, his only proper choice would still have been to stop, lower the lifeboats, and perhaps utter a quite prayer. No man could have done more.

-- David G. Brown
 
>>Just wondering, if the Titanic did have plugging kits and trained divers...<<

But they didn't and I think on some level, this is a crucial point that's being missed in a lot of the "what if" scenerios. If one cares to be realistic about what might have been attempted and what it's chances of success were, you would have to do so using information on the resources, experience and understanding of shipboard damage control and repair stratagies known to exist at the time.

Anything else is simply anachronistic.

As a tangent, if the Titanic had all the goodies and divers with brilliant lights, dry suits, and lavish equipment, the issue would have been locating the damage in the darkness. In this case, the outside water pressure could have actually worked in their favour since it would tend to draw in anything that would be pressed or wedged into the openings.

Keep in mind that the openings were mostly split seams, broken and buckled plates and sheered rivets so each hole in and of itself wasn't that dramatic. However, in total, it was quite adaquate to let in enough water to sink the ship.

>>What if crew members took waterproof canvas tide weights to the end and threw it over the side were the gash...<<

Sorry there was no gash. Multiple small openings and spread out over enough compartments to sink the ship, but no gash. What you're thinking of was known back then as collision mats. They were quite common on warships, but Titanic had none. This idea was kicked around at one of the inquiries...the Mersey Court if I recall correctly...and was dismissed as unworkable. The problem is on several levels, not the least of which was that the crew had no idea exactly where the openings were. You would also need quite a bit of rope...enough to go down the sheer cliff of the hull and up to 34 feet under water...and lots of guys to hold onto it and get it into place.

The catch?

They didn't have collision mats and such a rig would be so clumsy as to be unworkable.

The crew of the Titanic didn't have the luxury of time and none of the resources needed to make any "what if" scenerios work, so they had to choose from a list of some really lousy options and choose the least of the evils. Any way you look at it, stopping the ship and getting as many people as possible away in the boats was the least of the evils.
 
>>All the wishing in the world won't change the score. Nor will it "save" one more of Titanic's victims.>>
Yes David G.Brown I Know that, Thats why its a "WHAT IF"

Michael,
Thanks for the info on the collisions mats i never knew there was such a thing i was almost on way to the Patent Office (lol).

And Thank you all for taking the time to answer me hair brained ideas.

Thanks
DAve
 
>>i never knew there was such a thing<<

A lot of people don't. They were quite common on period warships but I understand that they were rarely all that effective. They were better then nothing I suppose but fairly useless when dealing with battle damage. There's also an upper practical limit on the size of the ships on which they could be used. Since they tended to be a lot more trouble then they were worth, you just don't see them in use today.
 
Collision mats originated as "fothered" sails during the era of wooden fighting ships. To make one, an older sail would have thousands of short yarns hooked into its weave much the way some rugs are still constructed. The yarns were intended to provide more resistance to the flow of water when the device was in use.

A warship struck by a shot below the waterline could staunch the inflow by placing this fothered sail over the opening. In those days, a large ship had nearly 900 men, most of whom were experienced in handling canvas and rope so the task was within reason. In addition, the top speed of a wooden warship was in the same neighborhood as dead idle for Titanic. This meant the hydrodynamic forces were more manageable during the days of wooden ships.

Collision mats are still used on small boats, especially pleasure boats being salvaged. An ordinary blue plastic tarp can work wonders--but only if conditions are right. Ships the size of Titanic are another story entirely. Trying to put a collision mat in place would have been like operating a marionette on 100-foot long strings. And, Titanic was not equipped with sails large enough to do the job.

-- David G. Brown
 
I was wondering why Titanic didn't break in two where the forward first class staircase is. Isn't there more open room there when compared to the aft staircase. Both were close to an expansion joint.
It's also above boiler room four also. If I follow it right, there talk of the grand stair case breaking loose and floating free during the dive to the bottom.
I imagine the angle of the ship was important.
 
Sally. The expansion joints allowed to superstructure above B deck to flex under heavy seas because the superstructure was built of relatively light materials. These expansion joints were not carried down into the basic hull girder of the vessel. It would be wrong to assume that they were points of stress concentrations within the hull girder itself and therefore the cause of a fracture even if a fracture appeared to start in the vicinity of one of them.

The entire issue of stress analysis is very complex, and depends on the distribution of weight and buoyancy as the ship was taking in more and more water in its forward compartments. The distribution would have undergone radical change once the angle of longitudinal trim of the ship started to become much more severe as well as the list to port that developed near the end.
 
Sam,

According to blueprints we used back in 1998, the expansion joint did extend into the hull plate at C deck. As such, it would have acted as a very strong initiator for a crack when the stern came up out of the water.

Tim
 
Tim,

I don't know where they got those prints from, but either the drawings aren't being interpreted correctly or they weren't prepared correctly. The expansion joints only extended down as far as the Bridge Deck (B), and then only through the Boat and Promenade Deck (A), and through the vertical deckhouse bulkheads and the light plating of the superstructure at the ship's sides, but not at all into the plating of B Deck itself, or beyond. The deck and sheer strakes of the shell at this level and beneath were unbroken from end to end of B Deck, and on the Shelter Deck (C) as well; the only openings through these decks were, of course, the numerous engine and boiler casings, hatchways and stairways along the longitudinal centerline; transversely, these decks were unbroken. All of this can be confirmed by examining copies of the actual H&W main construction drawings which detail the plating and framing of the aforementioned decks. The deckhouse drawing for Olympic's Bridge Deck will also confirm this, as will the drawing showing the structural details of Titanic's expansion joints.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
 
I sent out copies of the Expansion Joint Details plan to Bill Garzke and a couple of others on the MFP there at CSC. I laid out the plans in September at the MFP meeting to explain the problem with the views used in 1998. When I saw the elevation plan view used for the simulation modeling only recently, it was a head-slap moment. No wonder they came to that conclusion!

Those drawings missed the details of how the expansion joint was actually designed. The kinds of stresses seen in the finite element stress simulation were artificially induced.

Tim, ask Bill Garzke for a copy of the draft paper Richard Woytowich(MFP) and I wrote for SNAME. More of the details are under wraps following the History Channel taping we did last fall. I hear the show may air in early summer. Bill also has the plans and you can see how Tom Andrews designed the joints to prevent the situation seen in the stress analysis.

Regards
Roy Mengot
 
Thanks for the replies.
It's interesting to note how one set of incorrect data could allowed a possible different simulated outcome. Does this mean the figures and assesment for the breakup will have to be reworked over again?
It's amazing how a simple oversight like this could be made by the specialists in their fields.
 
Like everything in Titanic world, research is everything. The stress analysis simulation done in 1996/98 was based on the best information available. Now we have more. A big part of the peer review process for a technical paper in a professional society like the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (SNAME) has been convincing VERY senior naval architects and materials specialists that the new evidence does point to a different break-up scenario. They want to see the evidence and check the numbers.

While the break-up was incidental to the sinking, the ship was already gone from the initial damage, people still study this.

Regards
Roy Mengot
 
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