Charles Joughin Hypothermia Survival

[Stephen George]

To summarise, Joughin got bread into the lifeboats, imbibed intoxicating drink, threw potential flotation devices into the sea, had more intoxicating drink, made his way to the stern, rode the ship into the sea, made his way from where he entered the sea towards collapsible B, hung around 'til he was picked up by another lifeboat, got into the Carpathia and breathed a sigh of relief.

Is there anything I missed?

 

[chrismireya]

Greetings!

I thought about creating a new thread about Charles Joughin; however, it may be better to simply add a few thoughts to this one (which I find fascinating).

My first question (as a skeptic) is to ask whether or not there are any survivors who corroborated Joughin's story. Obviously, he was a survivor of the sinking. However, did anyone rescued from Collapsible B ever mention anything about Joughin?

Joughin's testimony about Collapsible B is quite accurate. He mentions that fellow cook Isaac Maynard recognized him and held out his hand to him. He claimed that he held onto the side of the boat until another lifeboat arrived. However, I've never found an interview with Maynard describing this.

For all we know, Maynard might have been standing on Collapsible B all along. In fact, he says something strange later in his testimony. He says to the British inquiry:

6104. And you supported yourself by your lifebelt. I do not want to be harrowing about it, but was the water very cold?

- I felt colder in the lifeboat - after I got in the lifeboat.

6105. You were picked up, were you, by a lifeboat later on?

- We were hanging on to this collapsible, and eventually a lifeboat came in sight.

6106. And they took you aboard?

- They got within about 50 yards and they sung out that they could only take 10. So I said to this Maynard, "Let go my hand," and I swam to meet it, so that I would be one of the 10.

6107. Did you swim to it, and were you taken in?

- Yes, I was taken in.

6108. You have said you thought it was about two hours before you saw this collapsible, and then you spent some time with the collapsible. How long do you suppose it was after you got to the collapsible that you were taken into the lifeboat?

- I should say we were on the collapsible about half-an-hour.

I found the words "on the collapsible" to be interesting. My skeptical mind makes me wonder whether Joughin embellished part of his testimony and was on Collapsible B from nearly the beginning. He would have only gotten his feet wet (like many of the others) -- until he may have swam over to the approaching lifeboat.

This would make much more sense about his seemingly miraculous tale. Until we find other testimony to corroborate Joughin's tale, I will remain quite skeptical.

As for his potential testimony about the breakup, consider the following questions and responses:

One disappointing point about Joughin's recollections: he doesn't go into any detail concerning the ship breaking in two. I always believed he would have been one of the key eyewitnesses to this dramatic event. Standing on the stern, Joughin would have had a clear view of the ship breaking up under his feet. He does not say anything about it during the British Inquiry but he apparently confirmed this with his family many years later.

I think that it is possible to read-between-the-lines with his testimony of the final minutes before the sinking. Here are a few of the questions and his responses:

6040. Tell us what happened?

- I went to the deck pantry, and while I was in there I thought I would take a drink of water, and while I was getting the drink of water I heard a kind of a crash as if something had buckled, as if part of the ship had buckled, and then I heard a rush overhead.

....

6049. You say that you heard this sound of buckling or crackling. Was it loud; could anybody in the ship hear it?

- You could have heard it, but you did not really know what it was. It was not an explosion or anything like that. It was like as if the iron was parting.

6050. Like the breaking of metal?

- Yes.

6051. Was it immediately after that sound that you heard this rushing of people and saw them climbing up?

- Yes.

6052. What did you do?

- I kept out of the crush as much as I possibly could, and I followed down - followed down getting towards the well of the deck, and just as I got down towards the well she gave a great list over to port and threw everybody in a bunch except myself. I did not see anybody else besides myself out of the bunch.

TIP | British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry | Day 6 | Testimony of Charles Joughin (Chief Baker, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

I suppose that someone could interpret this as to a firsthand testimony of the breakup by a possibly intoxicated man aboard Titanic. From his testimony, we can surmise that Joughin wasn't near the breakup -- but a bit further back in the ship. He would only hear the sounds and then describe the experience. He seems to have heard the frantic panic of those who were in the "rush overhead."

I've often wondered if the subsequently described "great list to port" might have actually been describing the final part of the ship's breakup -- when the aft-part was finally separated from the forepart. Joughin doesn't describe the ship righting itself; however, he does mention that (in the moments after) he was able to make his way at least to the starboard poop deck railing.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I found the words "on the collapsible" to be interesting. My skeptical mind makes me wonder whether Joughin embellished part of his testimony and was on Collapsible B from nearly the beginning. He would have only gotten his feet wet (like many of the others) -- until he may have swam over to the approaching lifeboat.

As a (recently retired) doctor with 41 years experience including a stint in Emergency Medicine, I can categorically confirm that Charles Joughin certainly embellished at least one part of his story - about swimming in those freezing waters for 3 hours. It is simply not possible for even the healthiest and hardiest human being to survive for more than 20 to 25 minutes under those conditions; in fact one would soon lapse into stupor that would make them stop moving and so accelerate effects of hypothermia.

If Joughin was indeed inebriated at the time as is alleged, it would make matters worse, not better. Contrary to popular belief, alcohol does NOT protect a person from cold; quite the opposite. The feeling of warmth associated with a sip of brandy occurs due to cutaneous vasodilation, whereby the blood vessels of the skin that would have been constricted by the cold now open-up, allowing increased blood flow. But in doing so, the blood is diverted away from vital organs like the heart and kidneys, making them more susceptible to effects of hypothermia. In effect, alcohol cancels out nature's way of protecting those vital organs in severe cold and so being inebriated can actually kill faster under those conditions.

It was not just Joughin - several other male survivors, both passengers and crew, made similar claims later. They were obviously suffering from classic "survivors' guilt" and given the social norms of the day, it would have been much worse for them than in the present times.

 

[Paul Burrell]

As a (recently retired) doctor with 41 years experience including a stint in Emergency Medicine, I can categorically confirm that Charles Joughin certainly embellished at least one part of his story - about swimming in those freezing waters for 3 hours. It is simply not possible for even the healthiest and hardiest human being to survive for more than 20 to 25 minutes under those conditions; in fact one would soon lapse into stupor that would make them stop moving and so accelerate effects of hypothermia.

If Joughin was indeed inebriated at the time as is alleged, it would make matters worse, not better. Contrary to popular belief, alcohol does NOT protect a person from cold; quite the opposite. The feeling of warmth associated with a sip of brandy occurs due to cutaneous vasodilation, whereby the blood vessels of the skin that would have been constricted by the cold now open-up, allowing increased blood flow. But in doing so, the blood is diverted away from vital organs like the heart and kidneys, making them more susceptible to effects of hypothermia. In effect, alcohol cancels out nature's way of protecting those vital organs in severe cold and so being inebriated can actually kill faster under those conditions.

It was not just Joughin - several other male survivors, both passengers and crew, made similar claims later. They were obviously suffering from classic "survivors' guilt" and given the social norms of the day, it would have been much worse for them than in the present times.

I agree with this. Many crew survivors embellished their stories, clearly due to the guilt they felt as a result of surviving when so many perished. Other than those who were on Collapsible A and B or those who swum to Lifeboat 4, everyone else just stepped in a lifeboat.

Furthermore, for the same motive, many crew overestimated the total amount of people in their lifeboat, whilst underestimating the number of crew in the lifeboat.

I expect Joughin spent as much time in the water as Frank Prentice. I have no doubt that it felt like hours in the water but was probably a short time. Even that short amount of time was at the limit of human endurance.

 

[chrismireya]

Good points.

Considering Occam's Razor as a guide, it seems that the most plausible and likely explanation to me is that Chief Baker Charles Joughin was on Collapsible B all along. During the British Inquiry, Second Officer Charles Lightoller was asked by the Solicitor General:

14118. (The Solicitor-General.): I have the evidence of the chief baker, a man named Joughin, who kept afloat in the water till dawn and he had told us at dawn he saw an upturned boat and made his way to it, and I think someone gave him a hand and kept him up in the water for some time. Is that the collapsible boat you are speaking of?

- I do not remember his being there.

In fact, Lightoller was more-or-less oblivious to the identities or even number of men crowded upon Collapsible B. He went on to further explain himself via questions in the British Inquiry:

14119. (The Commissioner.) How many were on this collapsible boat when you were transferred to the lifeboat?

- I did not count them, My Lord, but I have been given to understand since from the men who saw it and the men on the raft, that there were 28 or 30 on there.

The Solicitor-General: May I give your Lordship the reference. Joughin, on page 142 tells you what his view is of this boat.

The Commissioner: That is the baker.

....

14125. (The Solicitor-General): I daresay you will remember he (Chief Baker Joughin) said there was not room for him, and somebody recognized him. I think one of the cooks was on it, and held out his hand and helped to keep him afloat for a bit, and later on there was a lifeboat which approached and according to Joughin called out that there was room for 10 people. Do you remember that?

- No.

14126. (The Solicitor-General.) Your Lordship sees Question 6106 (quoting Chief Baker Joughin), "They got within about 50 yards and they sung out that they could only take 10. So I said this to Maynard, 'Let go my hand,' and I swam to meet it, so that I would be one of the 10?"

- The only reference to numbers was this; when I saw the boats I could faintly distinguish them. I had my whistle in my pocket. I whistled by way of showing it was an Officer that was calling, and I asked them if they could take some of us on board, and I said if they could manage to take half-a-dozen - because we were sinking then - it would lighten us up so that we could continue afloat. That was the only reference to numbers I heard.

Thus, Second Officer Lightoller could not corroborate Chief Baker Joughin's story. I suspect that, due to the overwhelming delicacy of the moment, Lightoller was more concerned with survival than the identities or even specific number of men upon the overturned Collapsible B.

However, Charles Joughin does offer detail about Collapsible B that was undoubtedly true. So, I do suspect that he was present on it (rather than sitting in a different lifeboat) before making his way into the first rescuing lifeboat. Otherwise, it would have only made sense that he was in the rescuing lifeboat when it arrived to Collapsible B.

Even if he embellished parts of his testimony, I do think that parts of his testimony are sound. He was one of the witnesses in the British Inquiry that substantiated the breakup of Titanic. During a discussion at the British Inquiry, the Solicitor-General and the Commissioner mentioned Joughin's testimony (which contradicted Lightoller's testimony) as possible evidence of the ship breaking apart:

The Solicitor-General:
Your Lordship knows a lot of Witnesses have said their impression was the afterpart settled on the water.

14094. (The Commissioner.) I have heard that over and over again. (To the witness.) That you say is not true?

-(Lightoller): That is not true, My Lord. I was watching her keenly the whole time.

The Commissioner:
I had a difficulty in realizing how it could possibly be that the afterpart of the ship righted itself for a moment.

The Solicitor-General:
Your Lordship may remember, perhaps, that the baker, who was on the ship at this moment we are now dealing with, and was climbing aft, said he heard the rending of metal - of metal breaking.

The Commissioner:
Yes, he was the man who got to the poop.

Charles Joughin's firsthand account of Titanic's final minutes (albeit from his own particular perspective) coincide with a breakup scenario that wasn't fully understood until after the discovery of the wreckage.

So, after reading his testimony (and those on Collapsible B), I am more inclined to believe the following sequence of events about Chief Baker Charles Joughin:

• He was aboard Titanic in the final minutes of the ship.
• He went to the deck pantry momentarily but suddenly heard the sounds of the ship buckling and the metal breaking apart. This was followed by an immediate panic (he called it a rush) on the deck just above.
• He quickly hurried out onto the deck in an effort to get to the stern.
• A sudden jolt (he described it as a " great list to port") occurred. It caught people off of their feet and threw many people into a pile. This was probably the final moment of the breakup.
• Joughin made his way to the poop deck along the starboard railing.
• He was somewhere along the starboard rail between the stern and the poop when the stern finally went under. He stepped into the water as it did so.
• He swam frantically until he saw the Collapsible B. He made his way to it and climbed aboard (while others were frantically doing the same). They were less concerned with one another and more concerned with keeping the overturned boat afloat as they climbed aboard (trying not to slip off).
• Eventually, 25-30 men accumulated onto the boat -- possibly turning one or two others away.
• Some time later, Lightoller used his whistle to call other lifeboats to rescue them. One eventually made its way to them. At this time, Joughin may or may not have jumped into the water to get into that boat.
• The lifeboat was eventually picked up by Carpathia.
• Due to survivors' guilt (or simply a "big fish" tale of survival), Joughin's story is embellished to recount hours of paddling in the water and holding onto Collapsible B until rescue.

Now, I don't know with any absolute certainty that this is the scenario. It simply seems like the most likely scenario for how Joughin survived the sinking apart from some sort of miracle that defies medical science.

I expect Joughin spent as much time in the water as Frank Prentice. I have no doubt that it felt like hours in the water but was probably a short time. Even that short amount of time was at the limit of human endurance.

Haha. A friend of mine mentioned that he began watching Downton Abbey with his wife because of the current COVID-19 shelter-in-place.

After watching the first three episodes, his wife said, "Wow, those three episodes passed by so quickly! It felt like just thirty minutes." He replied, "It felt like twelve hours to me."

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

His earlier version is a little different from what he mentioned at the Britihs Inquiry. In a newspaper account of April 29 Joughin mentioned that he remained on board until Titanic began to sink and then jumped. He then swum and several times lost consciousness. There he also estimated the time in the water to have been an hour and a half.

Another survivor mentioned that the baker jumped into the water before the "big explosion".

I do not believe Joughin spend much time swimming in the water. He most likely was at the "aft" part somewhere behind Lightoller close to Bride on Collapsible B. Bride was not able to stand up and when wind came up the water was washing over the boat. Its is very likely Joghin was among those close by Bride and was also afected by the waves.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

In those kinds of freezing waters, if someone keeps moving their limbs by swimming ----- NOT an easy task to keep up for long without limbs getting tired ------ a very fit person might remain alive and conscious for about 20 minutes. But if they slip into unconsciousness, the limbs stop moving and heat generated my muscle metabolism and consequent improved blood flow disappear rapidly. That means effects of hypothermia accelerate, unconsciousness deepens and they''ll be dead within minutes.

 

[Steven Christian]

His earlier version is a little different from what he mentioned at the Britihs Inquiry. In a newspaper account of April 29 Joughin mentioned that he remained on board until Titanic began to sink and then jumped. He then swum and several times lost consciousness. There he also estimated the time in the water to have been an hour and a half.

Another survivor mentioned that the baker jumped into the water before the "big explosion".

I do not believe Joughin spend much time swimming in the water. He most likely was at the "aft" part somewhere behind Lightoller close to Bride on Collapsible B. Bride was not able to stand up and when wind came up the water was washing over the boat. Its is very likely Joghin was among those close by Bride and was also afected by the waves.

Yeah I agree. I don't think he was deliberately lying about it. Like you said, I'm sure he was probably convinced it was that long. Icy water, full of alcohol, panic situation, blacking out...probably in his mind it was that long. Many say that alcohol make a hypothermia situation worse. And I agree, it does. Some researchers believe that most were dead before hypothermia set in. They died from cardiac arrest due to thermal shock. Maybe all that booze in him helped to dampen that. But that would just be postulating. Everybody reacts differently. Anyway he made it so good for him.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Most people now agree that Joughin's "swimming around in the water for over 2 hours" was exaggeration in the extreme; it certainly could not have been for more than 20 minutes, if that. As a ship's baker who probably liked his drink off duty, he could not have been the fittest of men. An "Iron Man" trained athelete might have remained conscious under those freezing conditions if he/she kept swimming for 20 to 25 minutes but beyond that they would slip into unconsciousness. Once that happened, the effects of hypothermia would accelerate rapidly and he/she would have been dead within the next 10 minutes at most.

But there are other aspects of Joughin's post disaster statements that do not seem to add up. He told the British Inquiry that he swam and reached an overturned lifeboat (Collapsible B) and after initially being denied any assistance by the occupants standing on the "raft", his victualling colleague Chef Isaac Maynard lent him a hand and pulled him partly out of the water. Joughin appeared to suggest that his legs and feet were still in the water when another lifeboat approached them and he then let go and swam across to it and was hauled in. Admittedly, Joughin did not exactly say that in his testimony but was vague enough for the committee...and subsequent followers of the disaster to think that he meant the same thing. He also said something about feeling colder in the lifeboat than he was in the water.

I have always assumed that Joughin was pulled on top of Collapsible B by Maynard and probably one or two thers and remained there till dawn. It was then that Lightoller and the others saw the other lifeboats in the distance and the Second Officer attracted the attention of the nearest one - Lifeboat #12 - using his whistle. AB Fred Clench in #12 heard the whistle and took his boat closer to the overturned Collapsible B and the occupants of the latter - including Joughin - were transferred onto Lifeboat #12.

Therefore, the transfer of occupants of Collpasible B onto Lifeboat #12 took place after dawn, ie a few hours after the Titanic sank, by which time Joughin must have been on top of the overturned boat with the others. I certainly don't believe that he had clung onto the boat with his legs and feet still in the sea all that time. Had that been the case, he would have been dead of hypothermia within the hour even with his upper body out of the water. Joughin's feet and legs were certainly swollen when he got onto the Carpathia, but were in much better shape than those of Edward Brown or Richard Williams who had been standing in the waterlogged Collapsible A.

There is one other thing that applied to the occupants of Collpasible A but would not have to Joughin had he really clung onto Collapsible B for 3 to 4 hours. While the water flooding Collapsible A was intially a freezing as the sea outside, the combined body heat of the 13 survivours on board would have raised it temperature by a few degrees, still very cold but just enough to save their legs and feet before they were ransferred to Lifeboat # 14 and/or Collpsible D. But Joughin could NOT have survived for that long in the same manner with his feet and legs still in the freezing sea around him.