William Oakes
Member
Welcome aboard Hasshir!
Did Lightoller's panic cost lives?
- Thread starter Haashir Ahmad
- Start date
Lightoller was prepared to go down with the ship; that is who he is. I really don't think, as a senior officer, he would want to be the only senior officer that survive by hopping in a lifeboat. It just wasn't him to take the easy way out, and that showed with him not allowing men to take the easy way out either. That being said, lightoller was wrong not to allow men in lifeboats, but he stayed behind preparing to go down with his follow senior officers.
In my eyes, his half a hero and half not.
In my eyes, his half a hero and half not.
Mark Baber
RIP
"Telly"?
The votes are 3 each on the voting
Arun Vajpey
Member
I think she meant TALLY. To be honest, the poll question is awkward because IMO the majority here, including me, DON'T believe that Lightoller panicked at any stage; but his actions - or rather lack of them in refusing to men and even teenage children to enter the lifeboats even when there was room and no women or younger children in the vicinity, DID cost many lives.
To my way of thinking, that is not heroic. Plus, other than doing what he saw as his duty, Lightoller did not do anything particularly heroic that night that would make him stand out from the other surviving officers or even most crew members.
To my way of thinking, that is not heroic. Plus, other than doing what he saw as his duty, Lightoller did not do anything particularly heroic that night that would make him stand out from the other surviving officers or even most crew members.
William Oakes
Member
This has been a very spirited discussion, with strong opinions on each side and some excellent knowledge shared.
I tip my cap to everyone who has participated thus far, and while we may disagree, I respect your knowledge and opinions!
Thank You to everyone.
I tip my cap to everyone who has participated thus far, and while we may disagree, I respect your knowledge and opinions!
Thank You to everyone.
OK. I've just skimmed through all these. I used to write here - can't remember when, but a long time ago. I have taken most of the below from my own files.
No Lightoller did not panic.
This is going to be long, but I’ve done a bit of research and even if you don’t agree with Lightoller’s actions, at least trying to understand the reasoning behind them might help.
Anyone wanting to be an armchair critic of Lightoller really should first read his own book, "Titanic and other ships" and then Patrick Stenson’s brilliant biography of Lightoller, “Titanic Voyager”. He spent years researching it, which included checking facts in the Australian newspapers describing some of the events of his amazing life. This man was like a nautical Indiana Jones!
And as for him being a hero - well, I'm sure the 127 men whom he picked up from the beaches of Dunkirk (aged 66) and squeezed into his tiny motor yacht, Sundowner, dodging constant bombardment, would agree with that assessment.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing – if only we had it when we were in the middle of dealing with an emergency, perhaps we wouldn’t make any mistakes! Tragically, as with most man-made disasters, it’s never one mistake, but a whole load of them, plus a breakdown in communications and surely the Titanic was a prime case of this.
In his “Titanic and other ships”, Lightoller states that he was not aware of the extent of the damage or told that the ship would go down. He assumed that she had been dealt a glancing blow, which had opened up one or two of the compartments and the ship had been designed to withstand such an accident. He wrote:
“There had been no chance or time to make enquiries, but I figured up in my own mind that …….. she would go so far until she balanced her buoyancy, and there she would remain…”
He also indicated that he was not given any order to fill the lifeboats, but when he saw the Captain, cupped his hands and yelled into his ears (this was during the noise of the steam) “Hadn’t we better get the women and children into the lifeboats?” The main reason for doing this was that he could see a steamer that he thought was coming towards them and again, he wrongly assumed that they would be able to transfer all the passengers onto it.
“My idea was that I would lower the boats with a few people in each and when safely in the water fill them up from the gangway doors on the lower decks, and transfer them to the other ship.
…it is a risky business at the best of times to attempt to lower a boat between seventy and eighty feet at night time, filled with people who are not “boatwise.” It is, unfortunately, the rule rather than the exception for some mishap to occur when lowering boats loaded with people, who, through no fault of their own, lack this boat sense. in addition, the strain is almost too much to expect of boats and falls under ordinary conditions.
Wilde seemed unduly cautious about allowing the boats to be lowered. Lightoller, a veteran of a previous shipwreck, knew differently and sought the permission of the Captain to lower the boats.
Collapsible D was lifted, righted and hooked to the tackles where Boat 2 had been. The crew then formed a ring around the lifeboat and allowed only women to pass through. The boat could hold 47, but after 15 women had been loaded, no more women could be found. Lightoller now allowed to men to take the vacant seats. Then Colonel Gracie arrived with more female passengers and all the men immediately stepped out and made way for them. While loading this boat, Lightoller was ordered by First Officer Wilde to go with her. "Not damn likely" was Lightoller's reply and he stepped back on deck. While the collapsible was lowered to the ocean, two men were seen to jump into it from the rapidly flooding A deck.
Charles Herbert Lightoller : Titanic Second Officer
Also, in his book Lightoller says that he deliberately did not tell the passengers of the seriousness of the situation because he did not want panic to ensue, especially when people realised there were not enough lifeboats. Of course, this had the opposite effect, as so many women refused to get in.
Senator SMITH. Who determined the number of people who should go into the lifeboats?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I did.
Senator SMITH. How did you reach a conclusion as to the number that should be permitted to go in?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. My own judgment about the strength of the tackle.
Senator SMITH. How many did you put in each boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. In the first boat I put about 20 or 25. Twenty, sir.
Senator SMITH. How did it happen you did not put more people into that boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Because I did not consider it safe.
Senator SMITH. In a great emergency like that, where there were limited facilities, could you not have afforded to try to put more people into that boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I did not know it was urgent then. I had no idea it was urgent.
Senator SMITH. Supposing you had known it was urgent, what would you have done?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I would have acted to the best of my judgment then.
Senator SMITH. Tell me what you would have thought wise.
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I would have taken more risks. I should not have considered it wise to put more in, but I might have taken risks.
Senator SMITH. How many did the third boat contain?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. By the time I came to the third boat I was aware that it was getting serious, and then I started to take chances.\
Senator SMITH. Women and children? Up to this time, so far as you recollect, no men had been permitted to get into these boats?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. None had attempted to do so; no, sir.
Senator SMITH. How about the sixth boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. That is the collapsible, the surfboat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I filled it with about 15 or 20 eventually mustered up. It took longer to fill that boat than it did any other boat, notwithstanding that the others had more in them. On two occasions the men thought there were no more women and commenced to get in and then found one or two more and then got out again.
So that's why i assert he did not panic.
No Lightoller did not panic.
This is going to be long, but I’ve done a bit of research and even if you don’t agree with Lightoller’s actions, at least trying to understand the reasoning behind them might help.
Anyone wanting to be an armchair critic of Lightoller really should first read his own book, "Titanic and other ships" and then Patrick Stenson’s brilliant biography of Lightoller, “Titanic Voyager”. He spent years researching it, which included checking facts in the Australian newspapers describing some of the events of his amazing life. This man was like a nautical Indiana Jones!
And as for him being a hero - well, I'm sure the 127 men whom he picked up from the beaches of Dunkirk (aged 66) and squeezed into his tiny motor yacht, Sundowner, dodging constant bombardment, would agree with that assessment.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing – if only we had it when we were in the middle of dealing with an emergency, perhaps we wouldn’t make any mistakes! Tragically, as with most man-made disasters, it’s never one mistake, but a whole load of them, plus a breakdown in communications and surely the Titanic was a prime case of this.
In his “Titanic and other ships”, Lightoller states that he was not aware of the extent of the damage or told that the ship would go down. He assumed that she had been dealt a glancing blow, which had opened up one or two of the compartments and the ship had been designed to withstand such an accident. He wrote:
“There had been no chance or time to make enquiries, but I figured up in my own mind that …….. she would go so far until she balanced her buoyancy, and there she would remain…”
He also indicated that he was not given any order to fill the lifeboats, but when he saw the Captain, cupped his hands and yelled into his ears (this was during the noise of the steam) “Hadn’t we better get the women and children into the lifeboats?” The main reason for doing this was that he could see a steamer that he thought was coming towards them and again, he wrongly assumed that they would be able to transfer all the passengers onto it.
“My idea was that I would lower the boats with a few people in each and when safely in the water fill them up from the gangway doors on the lower decks, and transfer them to the other ship.
…it is a risky business at the best of times to attempt to lower a boat between seventy and eighty feet at night time, filled with people who are not “boatwise.” It is, unfortunately, the rule rather than the exception for some mishap to occur when lowering boats loaded with people, who, through no fault of their own, lack this boat sense. in addition, the strain is almost too much to expect of boats and falls under ordinary conditions.
Wilde seemed unduly cautious about allowing the boats to be lowered. Lightoller, a veteran of a previous shipwreck, knew differently and sought the permission of the Captain to lower the boats.
Collapsible D was lifted, righted and hooked to the tackles where Boat 2 had been. The crew then formed a ring around the lifeboat and allowed only women to pass through. The boat could hold 47, but after 15 women had been loaded, no more women could be found. Lightoller now allowed to men to take the vacant seats. Then Colonel Gracie arrived with more female passengers and all the men immediately stepped out and made way for them. While loading this boat, Lightoller was ordered by First Officer Wilde to go with her. "Not damn likely" was Lightoller's reply and he stepped back on deck. While the collapsible was lowered to the ocean, two men were seen to jump into it from the rapidly flooding A deck.
Charles Herbert Lightoller : Titanic Second Officer
Also, in his book Lightoller says that he deliberately did not tell the passengers of the seriousness of the situation because he did not want panic to ensue, especially when people realised there were not enough lifeboats. Of course, this had the opposite effect, as so many women refused to get in.
Senator SMITH. Who determined the number of people who should go into the lifeboats?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I did.
Senator SMITH. How did you reach a conclusion as to the number that should be permitted to go in?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. My own judgment about the strength of the tackle.
Senator SMITH. How many did you put in each boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. In the first boat I put about 20 or 25. Twenty, sir.
Senator SMITH. How did it happen you did not put more people into that boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. Because I did not consider it safe.
Senator SMITH. In a great emergency like that, where there were limited facilities, could you not have afforded to try to put more people into that boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I did not know it was urgent then. I had no idea it was urgent.
Senator SMITH. Supposing you had known it was urgent, what would you have done?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I would have acted to the best of my judgment then.
Senator SMITH. Tell me what you would have thought wise.
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I would have taken more risks. I should not have considered it wise to put more in, but I might have taken risks.
Senator SMITH. How many did the third boat contain?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. By the time I came to the third boat I was aware that it was getting serious, and then I started to take chances.\
Senator SMITH. Women and children? Up to this time, so far as you recollect, no men had been permitted to get into these boats?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. None had attempted to do so; no, sir.
Senator SMITH. How about the sixth boat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. That is the collapsible, the surfboat?
Mr. LIGHTOLLER. I filled it with about 15 or 20 eventually mustered up. It took longer to fill that boat than it did any other boat, notwithstanding that the others had more in them. On two occasions the men thought there were no more women and commenced to get in and then found one or two more and then got out again.
TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 1 | Testimony of Charles Lightoller, cont.
Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'
www.titanicinquiry.org
So that's why i assert he did not panic.
William Oakes
Member
Thank You Sir!
Thank GOD, finally a voice of reason.
Thank GOD, finally a voice of reason.
Robert T. Paige
Member
My thanks also !
I , too, was wondering ....... Why the "panic"........????
I think if Lightoller can be blamed for anything , it might be for being overly cautious ?
And also of his interpretation that it meant "Women and children ONLY" ?
I , too, was wondering ....... Why the "panic"........????
I think if Lightoller can be blamed for anything , it might be for being overly cautious ?
And also of his interpretation that it meant "Women and children ONLY" ?
Last edited:
Robert T. Paige
Member
I will leave it to the moderator to determine whether this is off topic or not ?
But I think it is a little connected with the subject of "lifeboats".
I was only in the U.S. Navy for one enlistment of 4 years.
And only about 2 1/2 years of that was active sea duty.
I don't remember ever having even one lifeboat drill.
The sea duty, as I count them, was on 5 ships.
3 as a "passenger" and 2 as a regular member of the ship's complement.
Was this normal ?
Or maybe just the Deck Division had lifeboat drills and I was unaware of them as I was not in that Division ?
I do remember there was one drill with lifeboats in Navy "Boot Camp."
But it was mainly an exercise in rowing and steering the boat.
"Non-Swimmers" were not allowed to participate.
I was one of those. :-(
However , I "qualified" and got off the "Non-Swimmers Detail" few weeks later.
But I think it is a little connected with the subject of "lifeboats".
I was only in the U.S. Navy for one enlistment of 4 years.
And only about 2 1/2 years of that was active sea duty.
I don't remember ever having even one lifeboat drill.
The sea duty, as I count them, was on 5 ships.
3 as a "passenger" and 2 as a regular member of the ship's complement.
Was this normal ?
Or maybe just the Deck Division had lifeboat drills and I was unaware of them as I was not in that Division ?
I do remember there was one drill with lifeboats in Navy "Boot Camp."
But it was mainly an exercise in rowing and steering the boat.
"Non-Swimmers" were not allowed to participate.
I was one of those. :-(
However , I "qualified" and got off the "Non-Swimmers Detail" few weeks later.
Last edited:
Stephen Carey
Member
Just an observation from 18 years at sea with the British Merchant Navy...
Nowhere in our engineering tickets was there any instruction on how to be a hero. There wasn't anything in the Mates' tickets either, apart from knowing how to handle a small boat, which was taught at marine school. Being able to "hand, reef and steer" was the basic requirement of any seaman, and most were pretty good at it. The vast majority of British seamen and officers were very well trained and had been at sea for years, but most of course had never lowered a boat "in anger" which tends to show that it was a fairly safe method of travel.
Those large ships required the highest qualifications, and even Boxhall had an Extra Master's ticket and, as far as I remember, all WSL officers had to have a Master's ticket in Sail.
Emergency drills were tightened up in the late 70s and 80s, and many RNR like myself would hold really protracted and useful emergency drills, in the hope that when the manure hit the ventilation we would respond accordingly. Having just practiced an economiser fire a week earlier, we actually got one. With 50ft flames from a hydrogen dissociation fire coming out of the funnel the Master immediately turned the ship to remove the risk of it igniting the vapours from the cargo tank vents. Molten metal was dropping down into the engineroom so cooling hoses were operating at each level to put out any fires started by these. To cut a long story short, we had all wondered whether we would rise to the occasion in the event of something as scary as this, and as it turned out, we did, and thankful for having practiced it only a week beforehand.
You can read about the Gothic fire, (I sailed with her Master when he came back to sea as Mate in my company) another frightening situation, in the link below. What it comes down to is "doing the right thing" and you can see this in the case of Oceanos and Costa Concordia as well as Gothic - totally different reactions from the crews of all three ships.
maritimeradio.org
Nowhere in our engineering tickets was there any instruction on how to be a hero. There wasn't anything in the Mates' tickets either, apart from knowing how to handle a small boat, which was taught at marine school. Being able to "hand, reef and steer" was the basic requirement of any seaman, and most were pretty good at it. The vast majority of British seamen and officers were very well trained and had been at sea for years, but most of course had never lowered a boat "in anger" which tends to show that it was a fairly safe method of travel.
Those large ships required the highest qualifications, and even Boxhall had an Extra Master's ticket and, as far as I remember, all WSL officers had to have a Master's ticket in Sail.
Emergency drills were tightened up in the late 70s and 80s, and many RNR like myself would hold really protracted and useful emergency drills, in the hope that when the manure hit the ventilation we would respond accordingly. Having just practiced an economiser fire a week earlier, we actually got one. With 50ft flames from a hydrogen dissociation fire coming out of the funnel the Master immediately turned the ship to remove the risk of it igniting the vapours from the cargo tank vents. Molten metal was dropping down into the engineroom so cooling hoses were operating at each level to put out any fires started by these. To cut a long story short, we had all wondered whether we would rise to the occasion in the event of something as scary as this, and as it turned out, we did, and thankful for having practiced it only a week beforehand.
You can read about the Gothic fire, (I sailed with her Master when he came back to sea as Mate in my company) another frightening situation, in the link below. What it comes down to is "doing the right thing" and you can see this in the case of Oceanos and Costa Concordia as well as Gothic - totally different reactions from the crews of all three ships.
2017: Face-to-face with disaster: The 1968 SS Gothic fire | Maritime Radio
EXCLUSIVE: Read a first-hand account of the 1968 fire aboard SS Gothic in the South Pacific, written 49 years later by Tony Clark, 4th Engineer.
maritimeradio.org
Steven Christian
Member
You had lifeboats? I don't remember any ships with lifeboats...just inflatable rafts. Never had a drill on my ship either. But back to topic. I think Lightoller did his job. If the word heroic could be applied to him I guess it might apply during the time managing the upturn boat. The word hero like many other words today get thrown about so much they lost there meaning. Kind of like PTSD. But compared to some recent actions of ships captains I guess one could be called a hero if you just do your job and not haul ass and abandon your passengers.
Arun Vajpey
Member
No, he did not panic. Neither did any of his fellow officers. I think just about everyone here agrees to that.
But his actions in interpreting the standing order as "women and children ONLY" rather than "women and children FIRST" was and remains highly questionable. In effect, around 50 or 60 men, who could have otherwise survived, lost their lives because of that interpretation. Maybe more.
Lightoller certainly did not do anything that night which made him stand out as a hero over rest of the crew - officers and men. He did his duty as he saw it and made sure he was saved himself; that's about it.
As to his actions in the Dunkirk evacuation, they were undoubtedly heroic but he was just one of several thousand who were heroic in that situation for various reasons. But most importantly, Lightoller's actions at Dunkirk bear no relation to those on the deck of the Titanic 28 years earlier.
Steven Christian
Member
An interesting article on the hero or villian aspect of Titanics officers. I'm going to have to re-read the US inquiries slowly one day as I don't remember Senator Smith accusing the junior officers as deserters.
P.S...as Sam H. says beware of articles that don't list the authors name and double check any statements that seem questionable. I couldn't see who penned the article. But I did find it interesting.
P.S...as Sam H. says beware of articles that don't list the authors name and double check any statements that seem questionable. I couldn't see who penned the article. But I did find it interesting.
Titanic's Officers - Titanic Officers: Heroes or Cowards?
A website devoted to collating information on Titanic's officers, as well as the officers involved in the disaster such as the Carpathia and Californian.
www.titanicofficers.com
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