Happy Birthday Ellen (daughter of Kate Phillips)

Very sorry that you've lost your grandmother, Beverley - and in such a desperately sad way. Alzheimers is such a devestating illness, and so very cruel for those who suffer from it.

One thing that does occur to me is that Kate might not have just jumped into bed with another man in NY on a whim or because she was 'loose'. She was a young woman who had gone through the trauma of the sinking, who had just lost the man who was apparently the love of her life, and she was unmarried and alone in a strange country. It is possible that a less than scrupulous individual exploited her in her extremely vulnerable position, and used the pretext of helping her to manipulate her into a sexual encounter/s. It is certainly not unheard of for sexual predators to prey on a woman in a situation like that.

From what Senan has mentioned in another post, the days between her arrival in New York and her sailing overseas again are rather hazy - she did tell a story about having been taken in and looked after by a woman, but I wonder if there might have been a man involved as well (possibly connected with that household, or one that she met through other circumstances). It might explain why she felt so bitterly towards your grandmother in after years if she was born out of an encounter like this, rather than to the man Kate had loved and lost.

At any rate, that is speculation on my part, and you would be quite right to point that out. If you do happen to hear more about the DNA tests I'm sure we'd all appreciate hearing about them, but given that this is a time of grief for you and your family I can understand that such matters would be the very least of your concerns right now.
 
Sorry to hear about your Grandmother.
My Grandmother who's uncle was Samuel Morley refused any DNA test because she was very suspicious, I indeed being her granddaughter could provide this at a later date, but would need to consider her feelings in this matter.
 
There never was any DNA test. But who, exactly, still needs convincing? And why?

Betty's mum (She had her own birth cert, after all) ran away with a man on the Titanic. That's indisputable.

The man died, but nine months or so later Betty is born. January 11, 1913, mathbusters!

She is, in all likelihood, the natural and consequential product of their liaison.

That is the ordinary assumption that must be overthrown if we are to entertain sneaking suggestions to the contrary.

The onus, to me, appears to be on the doubtcasters, not Betty, her family or Morley descendants.

What's to overthrow the ordinary and natural supposition? Where, exactly, is a tittle of evidence about another entanglement by a young girl who was, or had been, separately involved with a married man?

If there isn't even a thread that would begin to make such a shred, why the carping?

I don't see critics queuing up with a hypodermic behind the autograph hunters attending Millvina Dean...

A most impertinent image, yes - which is my point exactly.

I agree 100pc with Geoff, above.
 
Fair enough, Sen - I made the above post when there was still some ambiguity about whether the tests had taken place (which Beverly later clarified in another thread had not, and which Deborah confirms in this thread did not take place).

I'm willing to give the source from whom I heard the story about testing taking place the benefit of the doubt and assume that there has been some communication error, as the person who conveyed it to me and who cited his own sources for the story is someone I regard as a superlative researcher (as are his own sources).

Unfortunately, somewhere along the line misinformation has crept in, and the result is potentially hurtful to the descendants of those involved. For my own part in bringing this matter up with my original query and with subsequent posts, and especially for any distress I've caused the parties involved, I sincerely apologise.
 
No need to apologise, Ing, because it wasn't you who was concertedly and with deliberation spreading these stories.

But the judgmental have caused themselves to be judged.

They are hoist with their own petard.

They seek evidence to the Nth degree from others - yet we haven't seen it in the very first degree from them.

Case closed, in my opinion.
 
I've just been reliably informed that the necklace, L'amour de la Mer, is in Belfast and will be exhibited in connection with Nomadic.

I saw it in 1998 and wasn't much impressed. Your mileage may vary.
 
L'amour de la Mer is the perfectly real necklace given to Kate Phillips by Henry Morley.

I've got photos of it but they are somebody's copyright. I don't think any photos are online.
 
Hi Dave, i went to see my Great Grandmothers (Kate Phillips) necklace in July on the Nomadic ib Belfast, which i recommend all to see! and actually got to wear it. The whole experience was amazing. The BBC are covering the story on the 19th of September which should be very interesting. The necklace is typical edwardian, very beautiful!
 
Well i did, but i guess it being a part of my family history, is what makes it that extra special to me & yes no piece of jewelley would make any woman more beautiful and vice versa. It is largely made of platinum, but the sapphire surrounded by diamonds close up are stunning under the sunshine!
 
Hi all,
I have just joined the forum. I am an appraisal student in Nashville, TN. I am researching the necklace for an assignment about provenance and how it effects the value of an item. The story of Henry and Kate is quite fascinating. It is quite nice that Ellen's grandaughter Beverly has been posting here. I have been in contact with David Scott Beddard who has the necklace and is part of the Nomadic project. If anyone else can share any related information with me or point me towards related documents, it would be a great help for my paper. I think it can be established by passenger lists that Kate and Henry were both passengers on the Titanic. And by birth certificate that Ellen was Kate's daughter. And by personal account, that Ellen possessed the necklace, purse and trunk keys for sometime before selling them. Substantiating that the necklace was actually aboard the ship is the tricky part and that seems to be the key to the provenance.

I have really enjoyed reading the posts on this forum and researching the whole event. I greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass along. Thank you for your help-Carrie Nunes, Graduate Gemologist
 
Hi Carrie, just read your post. I'm pleased that you are interested in the story as it is fascinating! I have recently been filming with the BBC and featured on our local 'inside out' last week on the 19th September 2007. If you go to www.bbc.co.uk then 'inside out', then click West Midlands & on the right hand side is watch latest episode now & i'm the second of 3. I hope tgis can give some more information on this & you get to see the beautiful necklace.

Kind Regards Beverley
 
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