Herbert Stone's Disappearance and George Stewart's Obituary from Archive Newspapers.

[Jim Currie]

Groves, aye

On the whole problem of "the ship that stood still" I find the discussions around it here on ET very interesting but I don't fall in with either side. I of course accept that there was indeed a ship seen from the Titanic which did not answer any of her distress signals or make any effort to join the rescue effort. However as I am completely ignorant of navigation, the ocean's currents, ice on the North Atlantic, the stars, ship handling and so forth I refrain from making any judgement on the identity of the ship and respect both sides of the argument on this topic.

(I think I can hear someone in the back shouting "get off the fence !")

Who, me?

Seriously, Seumas, you don't need to be any of the above to put in your tuppence-worth. It hasn't been an impediment to many who are not as honest as you in admitting their shortage of first-hand knowledge. Sometimes, a fresh look at something followd by a seemingly daft question, opens -up a closed mind.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hi Seamus,

Did you mean to refer to 'GROVE'S' outlandish claims rather than 'Stone' in Barratt's book?

Gibson seems to have risen not very high by 1928, after 16 years, to 3rd Officer, then as you rightly note gets a rapid demotion.

... ___ .... ___ ....


There is a telling remark in one of Stanley Tutton Lord's letters to Edward Kamuda of 13th June 1964...

"My father could, when he felt like it, be very severe and intimidating"

From son about his father.

This stuff is all post 1912, as is Captain Lord's 1959 affidavit and the transcripts of the taped recorded interviews of Captain Lord in 1961.

To extend Sam's contention to it's logical conclusion, where does the cut off in time occur in considering the evidence? After Captain Lord's 'Savannah Morning News' article in 1914? Or his 1959 Affidavit? Or Mrs P Gibson showing Leslie Harrison her late husband's MN discharge book in 1963? Or Reade eventually getting a letter out of Stone's son John dated 31st August 1965? Or the late 1990s when researchers became aware of Groves' correspondence with Walter Lord in 1955 to the late 1950s plus a personal interview? I could go on.

I do not accept that what 'The Californian Incident' players did after 1912 is of no relevance, as Sam contends!

Cheers,

Julian

Hello Julian. Why should there be anything "telling" about that remark by Lord's son?

A decent father who has his children's well-being at heart can often be intimidating... particularly when an offspring is trying it on. I would say that the depth of "intimidation" depends very much on the level of behaviour of the offspring.

You wrote: "To see the rockets for himself?! And to get a more detailed report from Stone, given the nonsense about 'company signals' etc"

Nonsense about Company signals?? How do you know that? Do you mean "nonsense!" or non- sense, in that it did not make any sense to you? There is a huge difference, as you know.

Put yourself in Lord's sea-boots.

You are the Captain of a ship. as such, you are very much aware of the Regulations concerning the nature and use of distress signals at sea.
You have left a fully certified Deck Officers in charge of your ship. These Officers are also familiar with the appearance and use of Regulation distress signals. otherwise, they would not have been certified nor would you have left them in charge. The time is twenty five to one in the morning and there has been a vessel stopped about 4 miles away from your ship for about an hour. During that hour, you have heard your bridge officers attempting to call this vessel. They have obviously been unsuccessful. You decide to call the officer currently on duty for an up-date. You are told that all is quiet and the vessel is still in the same position.
About fifteen minutes after your check-up call, the office on duty tells you he has seen a flash n the direction of the nearby vessel which was followed by what seemed to be a white rocket which, after being questioned by you, he describes not being as high as her masthead light. You are also told that the vessel in question has began to change her bearing.
Given the above information and knowing that:
A: A distress signal can be of any colour and rises to a great height above the vessel firing it.
B: A moving vessel does not normally fire a distress signal.
What would be your next thought? Before answering...set aside what you now know and the "noble thing to do".

I wonder what the war record of Gibson would show?

What I do know is that shortly after the Titanic affair, he would have been out of his time... finished his Apprenticeship. Under normal circumstances, he would have been ashore for about 6 months at the end of which, he should have sat for his Second Mate (FG) Certificate. Thereafter, if he passed the exams. he would have gone back to sea as a certificated Third Officer. After that, he would have been caught-up in the war. Even if he did not pass the exams, he might have been given extra sea-time and gone back as an uncertificated Third Officer. He may never have actually passed the 2nd Mate's exam and, not being able to find an uncertificated post, obtained an AB certificate and gone back to sea as such.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

That ties-in with Stone's claim that the bearings began to change almost immediately after or at the same time the first rocket was seen. If that had been the case, then what purpose would there have been in Lord going aloft to the upper bridge?

According to what was claimed, Lord asked Stone if what he had seen was a company signal. Stone said he did not know. Well, if not a company signal, then why would a steamer send up rockets, which is what Stone said he told him? So what does Lord do? He tells Stone to call her up via Morse lamp, which had been unsuccessful since 11:30, and when he gets a reply to have Gibson sent down to him. Stone doesn't insist he come topside to see for himself, does he? What Stone was left with was the impression that is Lord was not concerned, then why should I? He essentially admitted as such. Lord himself admitted that he was not satisfied with Stone's answer about it possibly being a company signal. But it seems that he was not really willing to find out despite his 2/O saying that he did not know, yet cause enough concern to Stone for him to call down the tube to report.

The other thing, is that there was no change of bearings until after the 7 rocket was seen by Stone. I really wonder when that story of bearing changes coming at the time of the 2nd rocket was started? After Gibson arrived and was told of 5 rockets being seen, that steamer was still showing a red sidelight. If it had been changing her bearing toward the SW since the 2nd rocket, than it was moving in reverse all that time.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Regarding Gibson's subsequent carrier as a deck officer, he must have had a very good mentor in the way of Herbert Stone. Usually things that occur in later life are greatly affected by things that occurred in early life, not the other way around. I'll state my opinion once again. Stone seems to me to come across as a very passive individual, unwilling to decide for himself, lacking assertiveness in dealing with superiors, and somewhat lackadaisical in performing his duties for reasons previous cited.

 

[Jim Currie]

Regarding Gibson's subsequent carrier as a deck officer, he must have had a very good mentor in the way of Herbert Stone. Usually things that occur in later life are greatly affected by things that occurred in early life, not the other way around. I'll state my opinion once again. Stone seems to me to come across as a very passive individual, unwilling to decide for himself, lacking assertiveness in dealing with superiors, and somewhat lackadaisical in performing his duties for reasons previous cited.

Gibson would have served with many 2nd officers during his Apprenticeship. As far as I can tell... at the time in question, he had known Stone for little more than 10 days.
Normally, the 2nd officer was in charge of training the Apprentices. Gibson was 20 years old, and at the end of his training. He was filling -in time as they say in the trade and Stone would simply have been the last of many... memorable only for the fact that they shared the same trauma.
However, if you ask any Deck Officer who served an Apprenticeship about who he remembered clearly during that time, he would immediately tell you..."the first Officers on my first ship during my first trip"

 

[Seumas]

What I do know is that shortly after the Titanic affair, he would have been out of his time... finished his Apprenticeship. Under normal circumstances, he would have been ashore for about 6 months at the end of which, he should have sat for his Second Mate (FG) Certificate. Thereafter, if he passed the exams. he would have gone back to sea as a certificated Third Officer. After that, he would have been caught-up in the war. Even if he did not pass the exams, he might have been given extra sea-time and gone back as an uncertificated Third Officer. He may never have actually passed the 2nd Mate's exam and, not being able to find an uncertificated post, obtained an AB certificate and gone back to sea as such.

Jim, I'm intrigued by your mention of "an uncertificated Third Officer". Just out of interest, what's the limitation on the certain kinds of ships a Third Officer minus a certificate would be allowed to serve on ?

 

[Jim Currie]

Jim, I'm intrigued by your mention of "an uncertificated Third Officer". Just out of interest, what's the limitation on the certain kinds of ships a Third Officer minus a certificate would be allowed to serve on ?

Halo an sin. Seumas! Or should I say, howzitgawn?

It should be remembered that the 3rd Mate's (or 3rd Officer in posh passenger ships) Watch on a merchant ship was actually the Master's Watch. This was a follow-on from the days of sail when often as not, ships did not have a 3rd. deck Officer of any kind. It was so even in my day.
Very often a 3rd would be uncertificated. I know of at least 2 ships... a cargo ship about the size of Californian and the biggest (at that time) tanker in the world, both of whom had uncertificated 3rd mates.
At the age of 18, I was temporarily promoted to 3rd Officer when our 2nd was sent ashore with the DTs ( a result of the N,. Atlantic convoys experience he couldn't shake) and the then 3rd was promoted to 2nd. I was senior Apprentice at that time.
On the other hand. on Anchor Line passenger ships, which I served on. the minimum certificate for a Deck officer was 2nd Mate (FG) and that was the 4th Officer.
It is very possible that Gibson was uncertified.

 

[Jim Currie]

According to what was claimed, Lord asked Stone if what he had seen was a company signal. Stone said he did not know. Well, if not a company signal, then why would a steamer send up rockets, which is what Stone said he told him? So what does Lord do? He tells Stone to call her up via Morse lamp, which had been unsuccessful since 11:30, and when he gets a reply to have Gibson sent down to him. Stone doesn't insist he come topside to see for himself, does he? What Stone was left with was the impression that is Lord was not concerned, then why should I? He essentially admitted as such. Lord himself admitted that he was not satisfied with Stone's answer about it possibly being a company signal. But it seems that he was not really willing to find out despite his 2/O saying that he did not know, yet cause enough concern to Stone for him to call down the tube to report.

The other thing, is that there was no change of bearings until after the 7 rocket was seen by Stone. I really wonder when that story of bearing changes coming at the time of the 2nd rocket was started? After Gibson arrived and was told of 5 rockets being seen, that steamer was still showing a red sidelight. If it had been changing her bearing toward the SW since the 2nd rocket, than it was moving in reverse all that time.

"The other thing, is that there was no change of bearings until after the 7 rocket was seen by Stone."

Not according to Stone:
"
7937. During that time were you talking this matter over with Gibson? A: - No. I was watching the steamer by the compass with my binoculars.
7938. Was the steamer altering her bearing to your vessel during that period of time? A: - Yes, from the time I saw the first rocket.


"

 

[Julian Atkins]

We know that Stone did the previous voyage to down south in the USA from Liverpool, plus Groves and Stewart, with Captain Lord on The Californian, due to photographic evidence.

Inger Sheil apparently some years ago had all the crew lists for The Californian. Apparently they were costly to obtain as per Reade when they were at Cardiff, but they are not there anymore.

I would quite like to see them. To see whether ships carpenter McGregor sailed home from Boston, and whether Groves did a further voyage with The Californian. It would tie up quite a few loose ends.

I don't know where the crew records are these days.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Jim Currie]

We know that Stone did the previous voyage to down south in the USA from Liverpool, plus Groves and Stewart, with Captain Lord on The Californian, due to photographic evidence.

Inger Sheil apparently some years ago had all the crew lists for The Californian. Apparently they were costly to obtain as per Reade when they were at Cardiff, but they are not there anymore.

I would quite like to see them. To see whether ships carpenter McGregor sailed home from Boston, and whether Groves did a further voyage with The Californian. It would tie up quite a few loose ends.

I don't know where the crew records are these days.

Cheers,

Julian

Then something is very wrong, Julian. because Groves said that at the beginning of that voyage, he was signed-on the ship's articles as Second Officer. The only time that a ship had 2 Second officers was if they were signed-on as Junior and Senior 2nd and the ship had 4 Mates. That was a very rare situation and as you know, Californian had but 3 Mates.

Where is the photograph you refer to? I have seen one with Lord seated with Stewart seated to his left and Groves standing behind Stewart. There is an officer standing beside Groves who looks like Stone but his uniform is wrong, he has twin buttons above his jacket lapel... much like a PO in the Carpathia Officers photograph and he is the same height if not slightly taller than Groves. In fact, Stone was but 5 '5" tall and Groves was probably 4 or 5 inches taller than him.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Jim,

Look at the photo of Glenn, Thomas, Evans, Gibson, STONE, Ross, Groves, Stewart outside the Drill Hall. Stone is clearly the short fat person with moustache.

It is the same STONE in the pics taken on The Californian's previous voyage, as in Harrison's book 'Titanic Myth'. There is not a shred of doubt that Stone had served with Captain Lord on the previous voyage.

Actually it is Groves who has a 'tarted up' uniform in the March 1912 pics, not Stone, same as Groves wore a very well fitted tailored suit with cane to the British Inquiry!

In the same pic, Gibson either has his braces buttoned up too high, or has a very short pair of trousers that also don't match his jacket.

Only Groves and Stewart wear proper suits, as opposed to a mis-match of jackets and trousers - to the British Inquiry.

The pic of Captain Lord attending the British Inquiry is not particularly flattering, but he is wearing quite a nice double breasted suit and holding a tightly furled umbrella.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Julian Atkins]

Anyway, the crew lists for the voyages are what are important for The Californian as to served with who and when, and I can't find out where they are now!

They were in Cardiff in the 1960s, (and local to me), but no longer!

Is anyone still in contact with Inger Sheil?

And can anyone provide a lead as to where The Californian crew lists now are?

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Seumas]

We know that Stone did the previous voyage to down south in the USA from Liverpool, plus Groves and Stewart, with Captain Lord on The Californian, due to photographic evidence.

Inger Sheil apparently some years ago had all the crew lists for The Californian. Apparently they were costly to obtain as per Reade when they were at Cardiff, but they are not there anymore.

I would quite like to see them. To see whether ships carpenter McGregor sailed home from Boston, and whether Groves did a further voyage with The Californian. It would tie up quite a few loose ends.

I don't know where the crew records are these days.

Cheers,

Julian

I'd try the National Archive's first just on the off chance that they have something.

According to the NA's own website they only hold ten percent of crew lists from British ships between 1861 and 1938.

Merchant seamen serving since 1918 - The National Archives

This is a guide to locating records of merchant seamen in service since the end of the First World War, including records from the Second World War, and

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Despite the title saying 1918, the page actually covers 1861 onwards.

If they are not at the NA then another place to enquire at would be the National Maritime Museum who I believe also have their own collection of crew lists.

Halo an sin. Seumas! Or should I say, howzitgawn?

It should be remembered that the 3rd Mate's (or 3rd Officer in posh passenger ships) Watch on a merchant ship was actually the Master's Watch. This was a follow-on from the days of sail when often as not, ships did not have a 3rd. deck Officer of any kind. It was so even in my day.
Very often a 3rd would be uncertificated. I know of at least 2 ships... a cargo ship about the size of Californian and the biggest (at that time) tanker in the world, both of whom had uncertificated 3rd mates.
At the age of 18, I was temporarily promoted to 3rd Officer when our 2nd was sent ashore with the DTs ( a result of the N,. Atlantic convoys experience he couldn't shake) and the then 3rd was promoted to 2nd. I was senior Apprentice at that time.
On the other hand. on Anchor Line passenger ships, which I served on. the minimum certificate for a Deck officer was 2nd Mate (FG) and that was the 4th Officer.
It is very possible that Gibson was uncertified.

Madainn mhath Jim.

Thanks for that. I always thought that you needed official certificates to become even a junior officer. That's interesting.

I guess that's how Robert Hitchens ended up becoming a third officer on a tramp steamer without having any certificates. He was an uncertificated officer but it was all above board.

 

[Jim Currie]

Crew lists and agreements are also held in a number of other archives. The National Maritime Museum holds 10% of agreements and crew lists for the periods 1861-1938 and 1951-1976.

The rest, approximately 70% of the crew lists and agreements for 1863-1938 and 1951-1976, were transferred to the Maritime History Archive in Canada.

You will need the ship's Official Number to access these records. This can be found on the Certificate of Registry or on a crew member's Discharge Book.

 

[Seumas]

Hi Jim,

Look at the photo of Glenn, Thomas, Evans, Gibson, STONE, Ross, Groves, Stewart outside the Drill Hall. Stone is clearly the short fat person with moustache.

Hi Julian, is this the one ?