How Far Apart were Titanic and Californian?

[Samuel Halpern]

So, Sam, your like of Cam’s post means that you too are feeling “attacked“ and you also are not going to post here? Just asking.

I guess its your style Mila. Yes, you attacked those who you disagree with. In fact, you downright insulted Cam. Just because he is new to all of this, and quite enthusiastic at it, he doesn't deserve the verbal abuse you directed toward him.

 

[Mila]

What Lord meant "from the deck" is that he was outside on deck, not in the chart room or his cabin. Californian, like all vessels, had several decks. The OOW at the time, Groves, was on the upper bridge, or so called flying bridge. When Stone arrived to take over from Groves, Lord stopped him before he went up to replace Groves, It was near the wheelhouse door which was the deck below the upper bridge. I believe it was called the Promenade deck on Californian. It was one deck above the Shelter deck. It was there that Lord pointed out the stopped steamer to Stone and the ice that caused them to stop for night.

We are not talking about stopped steamer. We are talking about the light Lord saw before 11.
However, it really does not matter who was the officer Lord discussed this light with. I mean it is not the subject of that thread.

We are discussing the distance between Californian and Titanic, and I asked you a specific question, if you believe Groves testimony of the steamer (Carpathia) he sighted at 6:50. If “no” why “no” ? It is an easy question to respond. I believe Groves testimony and timing are reliable because he had no reason to lie and because he connected two events: coming to the Bridge and seeing the Carpathia. What say you, Sam?

 

[Cam Houseman]

Do you have a link?

Mila, we’ve been warned.

 

[Mila]

Mila, we’ve been warned.

Do you consider the above post to be a PA?

I am not sure, Cam, if you are too young to post in the forums or maybe there is something else.

Buy, guys, enjoy the discussions that never end with an “enthusiastic” Cam and others.

I know what I wanted to know.
The distance between the Titanic and the Californian was around 10 miles.
It was confirmed by a few accounts: Lord, Stewart, Groves and Bisset.
In your book, Sam, you have got it all wrong in regards to the distance. I thought about writing a book at my own, but realized there is no use.

 

[Jim Currie]

To give an idea of how far apart Titanic was from the Californian , if you were on the bridge of the Titanic the horizon would be about10 miles and about 7 miles from the bridge of the Californian and if you were 6 foot tall and standing up in a lifeboat the horizon would be about 2 and 3/4 miles away , so this gives an idea of who seen who from each of the ships when the first distress rockets were sent up.

Exactly, Keith.

The same goes for anything above the surface of the sea.

Everyone assumes that Carpathia was firing the same type of distress signals that Titanic was firing. However, by regulation, Titanic also had standard distress signals so there is no reason to believe that Carpathia was not equipped in the same way. If so, then it would be perfectly understandable for Rostron to use old fashioned standard rockets before he used up his socket signals which could be used night and day. In fact, if Carpathia's rocket bursts were seen on Californian's horizon, then Rosron must have been using the old type rockets because otherwise, they would have been seen at least a finger-with above the horizon instead of right on it.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

I know what I wanted to know.

That's nice. Now you know it all. Bye.

 

[Steven Christian]

Do you consider the above post to be a PA?

I am not sure, Cam, if you are too young to post in the forums or maybe there is something else.

Buy, guys, enjoy the discussions that never end with an “enthusiastic” Cam and others.

I know what I wanted to know.
The distance between the Titanic and the Californian was around 10 miles.
It was confirmed by a few accounts: Lord, Stewart, Groves and Bisset.
In your book, Sam, you have got it all wrong in regards to the distance. I thought about writing a book at my own, but realized there is no use.

I haven't kept up on acronyms. What does that mean?
edited: Public Announcement?
re-re edited: Sorry I was informed what it means. Started out the day more dense than usual. I ran out of coffee.

 

[Jim Currie]

Let's put this "baby" to bed once and for all and quit the speculation and guess work - go with the evidence.

I would like to challenge every inactive and active member who considers that Californian and Titanic were in sight of each other while the latter was sinking. If I do not get a constructive rebuttal of what I am about to write from any one of them, then I assume that they admit that the Californian was at a greater distance from the sinking Titanic than that which they all subscribe to.

First let's establish common ground.

I'm sure we all agree that if Titanic's side lights were visible from the upper bridge of the Californian then the former could not have been more than 19 miles away. from the latter at the moment Titanic stopped. So that establishes a maximum separation distance. I use a 55' height of eye for Californian and 75 feet for Titanic's boat deck. I stress this is purely theoretical distance.

I assume, that everyone accepts the evidence of Carpathia's captain that Californian was about 6 miles away from Carpathia at 8 am. and that she was nearby at 8-30 am. If so, that takes care of part of the Californian's running time at Full Speed.

Captain Lord said he cleared the western side of the ice barrier at 6-30 am. on the morning of April 15. This dove-tails with the evidence from his 3rd Officer Groves indicating that the crew were called to "stations" shortly after that - at about 6-40 am. I point out here, that there would have been no point in doing so earlier than that, since at that time Lord would reckon that he has still another hour and ten minutes to steam before getting to the CQD position. i.e. ETA CQD = 7-40 am.
Captain Lord also claimed a full enhanced speed of 13 knots although his Chief Engineer, who was probably using rpm ,claimed 13.5 knots.
If Lord's declared time of commencing full speed is accepted, then everyone must also accept that Californian was running at full speed for 1 hour 30 minutes while on the western side of the ice barrier.
During the period 6-30 am to 8 am she was constantly heading in a southerly direction...SSW then S then SSE. Consequently Californian made good at least a southward distance of about 20 miles in that time.
In addition, at 6-30 am she must have been 18 miles from Carpathia. If so, then Since she followed a S.S.W.ly course across the ice barrier when she started to cross at 6 am, she was at least 3 miles farther to the north, at that time which means she was at least 21 miles from Titanic when she hit the berg.

The bearing evidence of the nearby vessel given by her officers.. suggest that Californian was NW of the sinking Titanic while the stopped DR position at 10-21 pm the previous night places her to the NNW of the stricken vessel.

It has been claimed that Californian was stopped about 14 miles from Titanic when the latter stopped. However, if that had been the case, Californian would have been WSW of Carpathia at or very near to 7-23 am that morning... not 8 pm as observed by Captain Rostron.

Basically: if the consensus is that Californian steamed at full speed for 2 hours when west of the ice barrier, then, unless she steamed in circles, she was where her captain said she was at 6 am that morning and also where he said she was half an hour later at 6-30 am when she emerged from the west side of the ice barrier.
In support of the foregoing and as a means of illustration, I offer the following sketch:

The idea that Californian was less than the distance claimed by Captain Lord cannot be reconciled with the evidence of her sighting given by Captain Rostron of the Carpathia.
In addition, as can be seen from the scale plot of the area, the idea that Californian was less than 10 miles from the sinking Titanic is totally absurd. How any qualified professional ever agreed with such an idea is beyond belief, except, of course, he had a rubber stamp which he used in a liberal manner.

However, as I said at the beginning - if any of you out there care to constructively contradict - be my guest. However, please do not speculate, guess, "pick nits" or take one bit in isolation. everything is connected.
Oh! and forget about offering "Close (or strange) encounters of any kind", smoke, mirrors, mirages, and not forgetting swirling currents to make your heads spin.

Have fun.. I am.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Let's put this "baby" to bed once and for all and quit the speculation and guess work - go with the evidence.

I would like to challenge every inactive and active member who considers that Californian and Titanic were in sight of each other while the latter was sinking. If I do not get a constructive rebuttal of what I am about to write from any one of them, then I assume that they admit that the Californian was at a greater distance from the sinking Titanic than that which they all subscribe to.

First let's establish common ground.

I'm sure we all agree that if Titanic's side lights were visible from the upper bridge of the Californian then the former could not have been more than 19 miles away. from the latter at the moment Titanic stopped. So that establishes a maximum separation distance. I use a 55' height of eye for Californian and 75 feet for Titanic's boat deck. I stress this is purely theoretical distance.

I assume, that everyone accepts the evidence of Carpathia's captain that Californian was about 6 miles away from Carpathia at 8 am. and that she was nearby at 8-30 am. If so, that takes care of part of the Californian's running time at Full Speed.

Captain Lord said he cleared the western side of the ice barrier at 6-30 am. on the morning of April 15. This dove-tails with the evidence from his 3rd Officer Groves indicating that the crew were called to "stations" shortly after that - at about 6-40 am. I point out here, that there would have been no point in doing so earlier than that, since at that time Lord would reckon that he has still another hour and ten minutes to steam before getting to the CQD position. i.e. ETA CQD = 7-40 am.
Captain Lord also claimed a full enhanced speed of 13 knots although his Chief Engineer, who was probably using rpm ,claimed 13.5 knots.
If Lord's declared time of commencing full speed is accepted, then everyone must also accept that Californian was running at full speed for 1 hour 30 minutes while on the western side of the ice barrier.
During the period 6-30 am to 8 am she was constantly heading in a southerly direction...SSW then S then SSE. Consequently Californian made good at least a southward distance of about 20 miles in that time.
In addition, at 6-30 am she must have been 18 miles from Carpathia. If so, then Since she followed a S.S.W.ly course across the ice barrier when she started to cross at 6 am, she was at least 3 miles farther to the north, at that time which means she was at least 21 miles from Titanic when she hit the berg.

The bearing evidence of the nearby vessel given by her officers.. suggest that Californian was NW of the sinking Titanic while the stopped DR position at 10-21 pm the previous night places her to the NNW of the stricken vessel.

It has been claimed that Californian was stopped about 14 miles from Titanic when the latter stopped. However, if that had been the case, Californian would have been WSW of Carpathia at or very near to 7-23 am that morning... not 8 pm as observed by Captain Rostron.

Basically: if the consensus is that Californian steamed at full speed for 2 hours when west of the ice barrier, then, unless she steamed in circles, she was where her captain said she was at 6 am that morning and also where he said she was half an hour later at 6-30 am when she emerged from the west side of the ice barrier.
In support of the foregoing and as a means of illustration, I offer the following sketch:


View attachment 75184

The idea that Californian was less than the distance claimed by Captain Lord cannot be reconciled with the evidence of her sighting given by Captain Rostron of the Carpathia.
In addition, as can be seen from the scale plot of the area, the idea that Californian was less than 10 miles from the sinking Titanic is totally absurd. How any qualified professional ever agreed with such an idea is beyond belief, except, of course, he had a rubber stamp which he used in a liberal manner.

However, as I said at the beginning - if any of you out there care to constructively contradict - be my guest. However, please do not speculate, guess, "pick nits" or take one bit in isolation. everything is connected.
Oh! and forget about offering "Close (or strange) encounters of any kind", smoke, mirrors, mirages, and not forgetting swirling currents to make your heads spin.

Have fun.. I am.

Hi Jim!

ok but Groves and Stone saw a steamer with lights, and noticed that the lights were "going" away. and at 2:20 they disappeared.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Your diagram of the courses that Californian could have taken after crossing the ice up north is not supported by the available evidence.
8871. Did you see the nature of the ice, between six o’clock and 8.30, the next morning? - Yes.
8872. While you were steaming in the direction of where you supposed the “Titanic” to be? - Yes.
8873. Do you remember what course you had to steer? - No.
8874. Were you able to proceed direct to the position of the “Titanic” given by the “Virginian,” or had you to skirt the edge of the ice-field? - We went along the edge of the ice-field, I remember that.

It seems to me that once she cleared the ice up north around 6am Californian headed down the western edge of the ice toward the Mount Temple. If Moore saw Californian crossing the ice, as claimed, then Californian had to have seen Mount Temple to her south. According to Stone, there were only three vessels in sight that morning when he came on deck. He didn't name them, but we know that there was Mount Temple (yellow funnel), Carpathia (red funnel with black bands) and this small 2-masted steamer (black funnel with white band).

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Jim,

A failure to reply is not an acceptance that you are correct.

Anyway, I'm replying, with a vote against.

I dislike these sort of forum polls. They mean nothing.

Stay well Jim. I wish all forum members the very best during these very difficult times.

Cheers,
Julian

 

[Jim Currie]

Hi Jim!

ok but Groves and Stone saw a steamer with lights, and noticed that the lights were "going" away. and at 2:20 they disappeared.

Not Groves and Stone, Cam... Groves and Gibson

 

[Cam Houseman]

Not Groves and Stone, Cam... Groves and Gibson

thanks for the correction!
And, they saw 8 rockets. Titanic fired 8 rockets

 

[Jim Currie]

Hi Jim,

A failure to reply is not an acceptance that you are correct.

Anyway, I'm replying, with a vote against.

I dislike these sort of forum polls. They mean nothing.

Stay well Jim. I wish all forum members the very best during these very difficult times.

Cheers,
Julian

I don't want to prove I'm correct, Julian, I want a demonstration from those who are pushing alternative opinions and poison to prove me wrong and prove the accusations against the accused. You are a lawyer, I'm sure you know exactly what I mean.
I could well imagine you in front of a Judge stating "I vote that the accused is guilty M'lud". Somehow, I don't think you would get away with that.

 

[Jim Currie]

thanks for the correction!
And, they saw 8 rockets. Titanic fired 8 rockets

Nope! They saw 7 rockets. If the first "Flash" had been a rocket, then Stone would have seen the reason for the flash... it would have been followed by a shower of slowly descending stars.