Looking for Procedure used to Reverse Titanic's Engines

In case you didn't get my message, thanks again Brent for the book - it is a neat read even for a layman.

Joe and Kelly - your information was exactly what I was looking for. Much appreciated!

Oddly, it was the scene in Titanic that got my mind on this question. I too liked the sound effects. If you didn't already know, they recorded the sound of a printing press for the noise of the reciprocating engines. Having never heard reciprocating engines (besides a few engines on youtube which are far smaller), that sound probably isn't that accurate (I envision the engine room being flooded by the noise of all the auxillary engines with maybe some steam hiss from the mains along with vibration and air movements)

But I should keep this thread on topic, there is an old "what did the engines sound like" thread ages ago but I'm not sure if there is much new to stick on it.
 
Hello there! Very interesting indeed but did Murdoch in fact do an emergency full astern? I know Boxhall claimed they were full astern when he arrived on the bridge but there is contradictory evidence. T. Tillon gave very precise evidence about the sequence of engine orders and the timing of them. They were as follows:
2338: Stop order.
2339.5 Engines stopped.
2340: Slow Astern.
2342: Stop order,
2343.5 Engines stopped.
2345: Slow ahead.
2347: Stop.
I have played with his evidence a bit. He claimed it was a minute and a half between receiving an order and the engine coming to a complete halt. and that the engine was running about 2 minutes each time.

It is easy to imagine that Murdoch knew full well that a full astern order might interfere with the rudder action in turning to port. The 2 minutes between the stop order and the engines beginning to reverse would be useless as a brake.In these 2 minutes, Titanic would have travelled up to about 2500 feet (allowing for drag and deceleration). If this were so then a less dramatic astern movement would be needed to bring the vessel to a complete stand-still. If this was so, as the above evidence suggests, then it would be about 2342hrs. At that time, the available evidence suggested there was little damage and that the ship might be able to resume passage once the extent of damage was known. It will be remembered that the senior R/O remarked to his junior that the ship might have to go back to the builder's yard for repairs. So minor damage seemed the consensus up until just after midnight. This being the case, there was a still a positive attitude on the bridge. Possibly Smith ordered Murdoch to bring the ship back on to her original heading then stop her until exact damage details were known.
This would then account for a slow ahead order at around 2345. Followed by the stop order 2 minutes later.

I know this flies in the face of other evidence but I don't think it can be completely rubbished. it would also help to account for Olivers hard-a-port order.(remember a hard over helm order does not necessarily indicate an emergency every time!) Additionally; Boxhall does not refer exclusively to a full astern order every time. At one point during the UK Hearing he claims Murdoch told smith he had 'run the engines astern' not 'full astern as Boxhall claimed. Just a point!
 
First, I believe you meant Dillon, not Tillon. I'd be very careful Jim about taking his times as being very accurate. For one thing he never talked in terms of clock times but time intervals. That said, this is the timing he gave at the British Inq. (3715-3736) using t=0 as the time the ship struck:

t= -2 sec - telegraph rings
t=0 shock felt
t=90 sec - engines stop (1.5 min after shock)
t=120 sec - engines start slow astern (2 min after shock)
t=240 sec - engines stop (4 min after shock)
t=??? - engines go ahead again (time not specified when this happened)
t=??? + 120 seconds - engines stop (2 min after being restarted ahead)

He also said the WTDs came down at t=180 sec (3 min after shock) which does not at all agree with what we know about the doors and when Murdoch was seen closing them. Murdoch was at the switch when Olliver came onto the bridge, and Olliver said the ship struck just as he entered. Boxhall, who was passing Smith's quarters on his way to the bridge when the ship struck, supports this in that he saw Murdock by the switch as he entered the Bridge. Given the few feet he had left to walk onto the bridge, he must have been just a few seconds behind Olliver. From observations on Olympic, it was seen that the doors close in 25-30 seconds after the switch is thrown. The note up by the switch told the officer to ring warning bell for 10 seconds before throwing switch. No matter how you look at it, those doors should have been closed within less than a minute of the ship striking. And when Smith came through the wheelhouse and onto the bridge and asked what happened, Murdoch informed him that the doors were already closed. I can't see Smith taking as long as even a minute to be there once the ship struck.

There are many other accounts that tell us the engines did not come to a stop for 1 to 2 minutes after the ship struck. That much agrees with Dillon's numbers, and also shows that the engines were not put astern until after the ship struck. The only person that said that that Murdoch called for full astern is Boxhall, and his account is very problematic from the very beginning. But being an officer, he had the highest credibility with the commission.
 
Its a shame that we will probably never know "exactly" what went down during those few moments.

History is written by those who have hung heroes (quote from Braveheart)...and by those saving their own asses (White Star/British Government)

The most interesting parts are hearing people with actual experience with ships explaining how they perform - especially with regards to how they turn. That "slight glancing blow" to the front just seems unlikely.

With regards to the engine orders, I like what some others have posted which is to say that they probably tested the operating of the ship after the collision to see if they could somehow continue to land before deciding that there was too much damage.
 
Hi Sam!
The guy's name was T. Dillon. Just passed the 'D' over in my anxiety! As I said, I was playing with what Dillon said. If you advance my timing by 2 minutes I think we're getting closer to the actual times. It would also dove-tail nicely with Lightholler's evidence at 13743 on Day 11 of the BOT Hearing as to timing - he got up a few minutes after impact thinking the engines had stopped - 2343 or 2344?
This is very apparent to a mariner lying in bed. Indeed, I have been wakened by the sensation of 'something missing' for the very same reason. Many mariners will bear witness to that.
I too agree that we cannot rely on an individual's recollection of lapsed time - unless, as I've said before, that individual has a clip-board and stop watch. We've all heard the expression 'in a NY minute' or the 'Information Desk operators request 'please wait one minute.' In Scotland phone operators have an irritating request that you 'wait for just a wee minute.' All goes with 'a pinch of salt'.
I was more interested in the engine order sequence and applying that to what practicalities might have been passing through the mind of Murdoch. The suggestion that the propellers were not turning as the vessel cleared the berg gives another clue. Lightholler also backs this up with his concern that the engines were stopped possibly as a result of the prop blades hitting something.
I propose that a full astern order was totally useless given the distance to the target when it was first spotted. The helm application was the very first proper reaction followed immediately by stop. The closing of the WT doors was a less urgent action although once again,proper. I am curious not only about Boxhall's evidence but that of Oliver as well. The latter stated he saw Murdoch by the switch - how was this possible if that part of the bridge was in darkness - was there a light there? Even then, would both Olliver and Boxhall's night vision be compromised from coming from lit areas?

Lightholler's night vision was also remarkable - when he got out of bed to look, he saw Murdoch standing on the bridge walkway keeping a lookout. How was he able to see Murdoch and why was that man on the port side if, as some suggest, the vessel was turning back to starboard at that time? Lightholler was even able to look down at the water and assess the ship's speed 'about 4 to 6 knots.' However, he contradicts his earlier sighting of Murdoch to suggest his night vision was rubbish. Almost in the next breath - he states at 17761 - that he could only see outlines of those on the bridge and could not be sure who was who.
A lot of carrots were consumed on that vessel!
 
>>I like what some others have posted which is to say that they probably tested the operating of the ship after the collision to see if they could somehow continue to land before deciding that there was too much damage.<<

In my opinion, it makes little sense to conduct such a test before assessing the extent of damage. It's like trying to see if a person can stand on their feet before determine how badly injured they are after getting knocked down. There would be plenty of time to test things once you knew the extent of damage. Why make things possibly worse by moving ahead unless there was a good reason to do so?
 
>>would both Olliver and Boxhall's night vision be compromised from coming from lit areas? <<

Boxhall's yes, Olliver no. Olliver was outside on deck all along. Boxhall said he came out of the officer's quarters when he heard the 3 bells. He wasn't even sure he saw the berg. Lightoller also said he saw the outline of Smith on the starboard wing after crossing over before he went back to his cabin. By the way, Lightoller was pretty sure the engines were not run full astern (13759). He should know since they conducted such a test during her trials and he was there and took part in it. But the Boxhall story is what the Commission went with.

What I find interesting about Boxhall's story is how Smith comes out onto the bridge and asks Murdoch what have we struck? That much is confirmed by both Hichens and Olliver. Then, according to Boxhall, Murdoch not only tells Smith they struck an iceberg, but goes into an explanation of his maneuvers to avoid it, as if he needed to provide the master with all that detail right then and there, non of which was confirmed by Hichens or Olliver. What they did agree on was that Smith's first reaction, and understandably so, was to order the watertight doors closed, which Murdoch said they were (and Boxhall adds that little detail about ringing the warning bell first). I just find Boxhall's account a bit too much of detailed for the moment, and more for the ears of the wreck commission than anything else.

How much of Boxhall's detail he made up trying to rationalize why the ship struck an iceberg when a very competent officer was in charge of the bridge can only be speculated upon. From the short time Boxhall came out of his quarters and walked the 60 ft to bridge, which could have taken no more than 15-20 seconds at most, too many things had happened: First he hears the 3 bells, then a phone call takes place which Boxhall knows nothing about (but we know took place from Fleet, Lee, and Hichens), then he hears helm orders given and the engine telegraph ring, then the ship has to turn 2 points (which we got from Hichens), then the ship strikes the berg when, according to Boxhall, he is first opposite Smith's quarters before he gets onto the bridge. Well, you get the picture.
 
>>Indeed, I have been wakened by the sensation of 'something missing' for the very same reason. Many mariners will bear witness to that.<<

(Raises hand) Count me in on that!

A sailor tends to get used to the sorts of noises common to a ship so that when something changes, we take immidiate notice. I know I've awakened out of a very sound sleep due to the sudden lack of background noise such as the ventilation stopping for no aparrent reason.
 
Sam,

There was a great deal of what we call'Jiggery-pokery' going on I think.

I use the 3 bells as a base'time signal' and apply the evidence of Boxhall and Oliver to it.

As you say, Boxhall had to walk 60 feet while Olliver had close to 230 feet to walk to get to the bridge. Both heard the 3 bell warning.
Oliver states he was at the Standard compass platform when he heard the 3 bell warning. On the other hand, Boxhall said he was approaching the bridge and heard everything- 3 bells, hard-a-starboard, engine telegraph.
Now let's say a man of average height walks at about 3mph - briskly? That means Boxhall would arrive at the bridge 13.3 seconds after the bell and Oliver nearer to 51 seconds after hearing the same bells. If Titanic was moving at 22.3 knots then by Boxhall' reckoning, she had travelled close to 520 feet between bells and impact. In Oliver's case she would have travelled closer to 2000 feet.
If Oliver saw the tip of the berg as it passed the bridge wing - say between the rail and the emergency boat, Titanic would have travelled about 250 feet or so further on. That would account for another 6 or 7 seconds after impact and almost a full minute after the 3 bells. However with Boxhall's scenario it would have passed the bridge wing 20 to 30 seconds after the 3 bell warning.

At the upper limit, Oliver would have to have been running at close to 12 mph to arrive at the bridge at the same time as Boxhall The WT door controls would have been activated almost at the same time as impact so Oliver could not have seen that happen if Boxhall is to be believed.

On the other hand, if Oliver took 50 seconds to reach the bridge after the 3 bells were sounded and he felt 'the shock' just as he got there, it would mean that Titanic had travelled close to a 3rd of a mile before impact.
I'm also curious as to what light source allowed Oliver to clearly see the 'blue peak' of the berg as it flashed past at close to 38 feet per second?
The only consistency in the evidence of those two was that they heard the 3 bells and they arrived at the bridge at time of impact.

In addition, Hitchins says the stand-by QM (Oliver) was on his left, recording orders?
Curious.

No doubt I've missed something if so- my excise is I'm in a hurry.
 
Well Jim, consider this.

3 bells followed by a phone call to the bridge. Say for argument 15 seconds from 3 bells to the end of the call between Moody and Fleet, followed by Murdoch's hard-astarboard order to Hichens. Add 35 sec for the ship to turn about 2 points and then bam. That adds to 50 seconds which goes along with Olliver's account.

By the way, Lee said he thought the berg was about 1/2 mile give or take when they first saw it for whatever that's worth (2447).
 
>>Now let's say a man of average height walks at about 3mph - briskly? That means Boxhall would arrive at the bridge 13.3 seconds after the bell...<<

Care to try for around seven seconds? The distance Boxhall covered is a bit more then the length a semi-trucks trailer and I've managed to walk that distance in about that same amount of time. Boxhall knew the ship so even assuming he was groping along in the dark, I would think he would do somewhat better then 13 seconds.

This, by the way, is the reason I think that Boxhall saw and heard one whole helluva lot more then he ever testified to or even could. If you're the officer on watch and you hear those three bells, you may not run, but you will put some boogey in your butt to get to the bridge. If you believe Boxhall's testimony without question, you would have to believe that he didn't do this. That he just strolled on at a normal pace even after hearing those bells which warned that something was right ahead of the ship as if nothing unusual was going on.

I'm not buying it.
 
Michael; 60feet in 13.3 sec.s is 3.3 mph - the average speed of a man crossing a street. 60feet in 7 secs. is 6.0mph - jogging speed.
Oliver walked 230 feet in 51 sec. that too is walking speed of about 3.3 mph. However, there is a dispute about where Boxhall was at impact.
He was not at the bridge but almost at it. In fact 'at the Master's quarters..60 feet away.
It follows that if Oliver was at the bridge, he was 60 feet ahead of Boxhall at time of impact.
If both heard helm orders and saw Murdoch at the WT doors - this would be reasonable to swallow. However each heard a different helm order.

Sam: In my own experiments, I considered what Hitchins said that he barely had the helm over at time of impact and that bells, phone, helm and engine orders came one after the other with seemingly little space between. I don't discount the 2 points to port bit but 34 secs. to make that turn seems excessive - particularly on a ship travelling at that speed. My timing looks like:
Three bells to end of phone call - 7 seconds.
Hard over command to impact - 24 seconds.
A total of 31 seconds If Boxhall felt the impact when he was at the master's quarters, he heard the bells 34 seconds earlier. He would arrive at the bridge in another 13 seconds - 47 seconds from hearing the bells- 3 seconds behind Oliver and just in time to see Murdoch activate the WT doors. Murdoch probably saw the ice at the same time as the phone call or even earlier and it would have been about 1100 feet ahead of the stem.
As I said to Michael..the problem seems to be the helm orders and who heard what and when.
 
>>He was not at the bridge but almost at it. In fact 'at the Master's quarters..60 feet away.<<


Give or take a couple of feet, that would be about right. Thing is, I've walked this distance and timed it. I could cover that distance in about 7-8 seconds. (I run across streets where I live but that's a different rant!) If Boxhall had just strolled along at a normal pace, the 13.3 seconds would hold up. That's not what I'm disputing. What I question is the story itself.

Put yourself in the shoes of one of the watch officers who, while walking towards the bridge, hears a bell which he knows to be an alert to some sort of danger ahead.

Do you continue at your pace as if nothing was that matter and all was well with the world or do you put some extra hustle in your walk?

I know what I would be doing and it wouldn't be a liesurely stroll.
 
I agree with Michael. I seriously question Boxhall's story as well. It just doesn't add up. Look:

15343. Do you mean you felt the shock before you heard the bells? - No, I heard the bells first.
15344. Where were you at that time? - Just coming out of the Officers quarters.
15345. How soon after you heard the bells did you feel the shock? - Only a moment or two after that.
15346. Did you hear an order given by the First Officer? - I heard the First Officer give the order, "Hard-a-starboard," and I heard the engine room telegraph bells ringing.
15347. Was that before you felt the shock, or afterwards? - Just a moment before.
15348. (The Commissioner.) Let us be clear about that. The order, "Hard-a-starboard," came between the sound of the bells and the collision? - The impact, yes.
15349. (Mr. Raymond Asquith.) Did you go on to the bridge immediately after the impact? - I was almost on the bridge when she struck.
15350. Did you notice what the telegraphs indicated with regard to the engines? - "Full speed astern," both.
15351. Was that immediately after the impact? - Yes.
15352. Did you see anything done with regard to the watertight doors? - I saw Mr. Murdoch closing them then, pulling the lever.
15353. And did the Captain then come out on to the bridge? - The Captain was alongside of me when I turned round.

He says he heard the 3 bells as he was "just coming out" of the officers' quarters, and was "almost" on the bridge when the ship struck. That's about 60 ft. From studies made of pedestrian walking speeds crossing intersections (TranSafety, Inc, Oct. 1997), "The average walking speed for older pedestrians was 4.11 feet per second, compared with 4.95 for younger pedestrians." I know Boxhall was young chap, so if you divide 60 by 5, he should have reached the bridge in 12 seconds, so your 13.3 seconds Jim is a good estimate assuming he was walking at a pace as if crossing an intersection. But that is from 3 bells to impact. In that time, Fleet has to get to the phone, ring down to the bridge, wait a second or two for Moody to answer, then go through the following dialog:
FLEET: Are you there?
MOODY: Yes, what do you see?
FLEET: Iceberg right ahead!
MOODY: Thank you.
Then Moody calls out to Murdoch, "Iceberg right ahead." And then, according to Hichens, Murdoch calls out, "Hard-astarboard." But that's not all. Now we have to wait for the ship's head to turn about 2 point before she strikes. 13 seconds for all that? I know that you are aware of the test done on Olympic that measured the time it took to turn 2 points, the famous 37 seconds. Even if Hichens was wrong and the turn was only 1 point, it would take about 23 seconds.

No matter how you want to look at it, Boxhall's story is not very believable.
 

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