Lookout eye test

In my opinion, the book draws on the evidence given by these statements and others, and elaborates on many factors that may have answered, to a large extent, the question posed by the Attorney-General at the time; i.e. " . . . how is it they failed to detect it until it was so close upon them?"
I think it is possible that the Attorney-General used the wrong choice of word to ask what he wanted to know. "Failed" suggests that the lookouts somehow did not accomplish what they should and could have done - which was NOT so in this case. What Isaacs might have really meant was "How is it that they did not see it...........", in which the simple answer would have been that they could not under those conditions.

Although I believe both men spoke honestly, my point is that we must also consider less obvious possibilities, including the chance that the witnesses were correct and the iceberg could indeed have been spotted earlier by the lookouts than it actually was.
I respectfully disagree. While Sam's diagrams in the article Encounter In The Night might be a guesstimate as to the iceberg's shape, I think it is very close to being correct in terms of the size (based on collation of survivor accounts) and visibility at night. The latter depended entirely upon reflected light and given the dark and moonless night prevalent, there just was not enough of that for the lookouts to spot the berg in time. Unlike animals with a naturally nocturnal habitat, human night vision is comparatively poor; we have made ourselves "nocturnal" by lifestyle which is fine in cities or elsewhere with enough light sources to reflect off objects. But under really low light conditions, nocturnal acclimatization in humans is more limited than what most people believe.

Lightoller stated, that he was confident that he would see "any ice that was large enough to damage the ship." He then went on to say in reply;
"I judged that I could see a growler at a mile and a half, more probably two miles."
(Brit Inq 13567)
I think Lightoller was greatly overestimating his seeing-distance ability of a medium-sized iceberg such as the one that the Titanic collided with, let alone a growler under the sort of conditions that prevailed that night.

Nevertheless, the starting point of this thread was to explore where, if conducted, Fleet's (and Lee's) eye tests might still be found, assuming they still exist. This question remains highly relevant to me.
Of course. I think you said that you are conducting some research into the matter and so it makes sense to look at the issue from all angles.
 
I think it is possible that the Attorney-General used the wrong choice of word to ask what he wanted to know. "Failed" suggests that the lookouts somehow did not accomplish what they should and could have done - which was NOT so in this case. What Isaacs might have really meant was "How is it that they did not see it...........", in which the simple answer would have been that they could not under those conditions.


I respectfully disagree. While Sam's diagrams in the article Encounter In The Night might be a guesstimate as to the iceberg's shape, I think it is very close to being correct in terms of the size (based on collation of survivor accounts) and visibility at night. The latter depended entirely upon reflected light and given the dark and moonless night prevalent, there just was not enough of that for the lookouts to spot the berg in time. Unlike animals with a naturally nocturnal habitat, human night vision is comparatively poor; we have made ourselves "nocturnal" by lifestyle which is fine in cities or elsewhere with enough light sources to reflect off objects. But under really low light conditions, nocturnal acclimatization in humans is more limited than what most people believe.


I think Lightoller was greatly overestimating his seeing-distance ability of a medium-sized iceberg such as the one that the Titanic collided with, let alone a growler under the sort of conditions that prevailed that night.


Of course. I think you said that you are conducting some research into the matter and so it makes sense to look at the issue from all angles.
Your reply, on both counts, is interesting as it invites us to disregard what was actually said in evidence at the time (Attorney-General) and accept what he should have said, in your opinion, and further on ask us to accept as fact, a hypothesis based on conjecture from a member of the forum. I think there is a danger in obscuring the facts even further by substituting actual commentary with hearsay and speculation.
 
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I respectfully disagree. While Sam's diagrams in the article Encounter In The Night might be a guesstimate as to the iceberg's shape, I think it is very close to being correct in terms of the size (based on collation of survivor accounts) and visibility at night. The latter depended entirely upon reflected light and given the dark and moonless night prevalent, there just was not enough of that for the lookouts to spot the berg in time. Unlike animals with a naturally nocturnal habitat, human night vision is comparatively poor; we have made ourselves "nocturnal" by lifestyle which is fine in cities or elsewhere with enough light sources to reflect off objects. But under really low light conditions, nocturnal acclimatization in humans is more limited than what most people believe.
Please feel free to disagree - that’s the purpose of this forum! Obviously, night vision is only a fraction of the visual capability humans have during the daytime. Nevertheless, Fleet and Lee were experienced lookouts and likely had their own methods of using their vision at night to scan for obstructions. It’s not just about spotting the object itself—in this case, a dark iceberg—but also noticing any disruption in the background, such as stars or their reflections on the water. I believe we should not underestimate the observational skills of these two men and of other lookouts those days.
 
At some point, it is conceivable that a decision was made not to subject the lookouts to further testing. The reason for this was possibly due to the concern that the 'new' eyesight test, being more rigorous, held even the remotest chance, that either of the two lookouts could fail, which would bring further problems. As it stood, the Attorney-General was satisfied that there was no violation of current regulations, the Press had remained indifferent to any negative stories following their testimony during the Inquiry and the seamen's unions would not create a situation whereby two of its members were exposed to blame for the foundering and Thomas Scanlan, their counsel during the Inquiry, who had pursued the question relentlessly must have seen the implications for his members and that no good would come out of it.
This is borne out by a note, in the few existing documents, from the 'solicitor' which added;
"The Attorney-General told me today that he had read those papers & decided to take no further action."
Further on another note from the Marine Department dated 4th June 1912, read;
"Both men are at Southampton & if the Board doesn't want them detained any longer, I will telegraph to the Receiver of Wrecks to discharge them."
A series of margin notes followed;
"Presumably, these men need not be detained any longer."
(Initialed A.S.K. 5/6)
Mr Baker; "I agree."
(Initialed H.B.)
Finally, The Solicitor noted;
"I have telegraphed to Southampton to discharge Lee & Fleet."
(MT9/920C. M15637)
This is my own take on the re-testing issue and I doubt if there exists any more substantive evidence that could have came back on the findings of Lord Mersey. Hope this helps.

Thank you for your input.

If the lookouts were tested, it would have been according to the old regulations, not the newer ones. This is especially true for Fleet, who would have been tested in the aftermath of the disaster in Washington, long before the updated tests were introduced. The Americans likely would have been less concerned about potential press attention regarding an English vessel than the British might have been.

As for whether a test was conducted on British soil after the disaster but before the new eye test was introduced, I cannot say for certain (yet). However, I remain hopeful that one day I might be able to confirm this. Fingers crossed.

Where can the notes from the Marine Department that you are referring to be found?
 
... and further on ask us to accept as fact, a hypothesis based on conjecture from a member of the forum.
If you are referring to the fact that the iceberg could not have been spotted at a greater distance than it actually was you are wrong on two counts.

First, it is not a hypothesis, it is a fact confirmed by actual observations, and second it is not the product of any member of this forum. It was established by the various ice patrol organisations set up in the aftermath of the Titanic accident.

It is apparent, in retrospect, that the beliefs about the visibility of icebergs held by the majority of mariners at the time, and therefore of most 'experts' giving testimony at the inquiries, were incorrect. The questions raised concerning the performance of the lookouts were therefore based on false assumptions. I think @Arun Vajpey is being rather kind in suggesting that the Attorney-General may have meant something slightly different in his question. Personally I take it at face value and dismiss it as irrelevant to any modern analysis of the matter.
 
Indulge me on this, please!

When I was in my teens I had extremely good eyesight. A family thing on long road journeys was to spot car number plates in alphabetical order - I could read these from a much further distance than everyone else.

But at around 22 years of age my long distance eyesight rapidly deteriorated without me being aware of this until one day when I couldn’t see the number on the East Cowes (Isle of Wight) bus coming up York Avenue in East Cowes until it was upon me. (If my memory is correct the number 4 bus went to Ryde, and the number 5 went to Newport - and I had to get to Newport). I had an eye test, and have had to wear glasses ever since.

I don’t think that it can be assumed that someone in their 20s would have stable eyesight that would not suddenly deteriorate. That was certainly my own experience, for what it’s worth.
 
Getting back to the book, One Starry Night, I read the blurb for it on Amazon. My BS detector lit up and its siren sounded. Here's how it starts.

"Why did the Titanic's lookouts fail to spot a massive iceberg as large as St. Paul's Cathedral and probably weighing a million tonnes which suddenly appeared ahead of the fast-approaching vessel in calm seas on a clear evening in April 1912?"

I can't take seriously the author of such blatant nonsense. St Paul's Cathedral is 158 metres long and 85 metres high. All the evidence is that the fatal berg was roughly 20 metres high. It may have weighed as little as 100,000 tonnes. It's small size was part of the problem. From the crows nest, it fell below the lookouts' horizon when it was about 1.5 miles away. There was no great object, looming up against the starry sky.

Sorry, Ian Donaldson, but I have better things to waste money on!
 
The questions raised concerning the performance of the lookouts were therefore based on false assumptions. I think @Arun Vajpey is being rather kind in suggesting that the Attorney-General may have meant something slightly different in his question. Personally I take it at face value and dismiss it as irrelevant to any modern analysis of the matter.
I agree. I took Issacs' remark at face value also. After all, the evidence they heard from witnesses such as Lightoller told them that the berg should have been spotted far enough away to have been easily avoided. In fact, Lightoller was asked why wasn't it spotted sooner than what it was, after all, the commission (as was written in the final report) concluded that the berg was first sighted about 500 yards ahead. His answer had to do with the lack of the sea breaking at the base of the berg because of the calm conditions and lack of a swell, and the berg presenting a dark side toward the ship. Of course that put him in a catch 22 situation. If those unusual situations and possibilities were present that night, they why were they going so fast to begin with? Nobody asked Lightoller how he knew how far a growler, let alone an iceberg, could be spotted at night. The fact is that nobody had any hard data as it is very difficult to measure distances to unlit objects at sea at night without special equipment.
 
I don’t think that it can be assumed that someone in their 20s would have stable eyesight that would not suddenly deteriorate. That was certainly my own experience, for what it’s worth.
True, but with respect you cannot assume that Fleet, a young man in his 20s at the time of the Titanic disaster, also could have had some sort of a problem that affected his eyesight based on your own personal experience. In fact, the law of averages tells us that Fleet had 'normal' eyesight at the time, certainly more than adequate for his work as a lookout. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest anything to the contrary and so even if Fleet had not had any further eye tests since 1907, that had no relevance to the accident.

So, while it is highly recommended that a person acting as a ship's lookout should have periodic eye tests, Fleet almost certainly had normal vision when he sailed on the Titanic but the reason why he and his partner Lee were unable to spot the iceberg any earlier than they did was because the prevailing atmospheric conditions, combined with the ship's speed and momentum, placed that task beyond human ability.

After all, the evidence they heard from witnesses such as Lightoller told them that the berg should have been spotted far enough away to have been easily avoided. In fact, Lightoller was asked why wasn't it spotted sooner than what it was, after all, the commission (as was written in the final report) concluded that the berg was first sighted about 500 yards ahead.
Completely agree. While we cannot be certain whether Lightoller was basing his statements on what Boxhall might have told him (on board the Carpathia) about his own whereabouts at the time of the accident and what he saw/heard, I think it is quite likely. But careful analysis by you and others of Boxhall's 'story' has resulted in it being considered as a deviation from the truth, which then automatically questions Lightoller's testimony about it. If between them the two officers gave the two Inquiry Committees the impression that the iceberg was only 500 yards or less ahead of the bow when Fleet rang the bells, then the questions by the Attorney-General as to why the lookouts had not spotted it earlier would be understandable, perhaps even justified. And of course, you know better than most how a certain senior former-member used to insist that the iceberg was "almost upon them" when it was spotted by Fleet and Lee.

The fact is that nobody had any hard data as it is very difficult to measure distances to unlit objects at sea at night without special equipment.
Very true and that applies to almost all walks of life. As I said earlier, over time we humans have adapted our lifestyles to suit working, relaxing or doing whatever at night but the fact remains that unlike many animals, we are not naturally nocturnal creatures. Our "night lives" are overwhelmingly based on there being other light sources, usually artificial but occasionally the moon, reflected starlight off snow etc. But most of us have experienced, even if briefly, how awkward it can be walking through even a familiar environment if the usual light sources were temporarily absent for whatever reason. Like walking along a familiar country path on a dark, moonless night when a low tree branch, which you knew was there, suddenly appears 'out of nowhere' directly in your path.

From the nest, and for the most part from the bridge, the berg had an inky black sea as it's background.
That is superbly illustrated in your diagram showing the berg 3000 feet from the crow's nest (just over half a mile from the bow) and 75 seconds before impact. To avoid bias (arising from a Titanic enthusiast's knowledge that the berg was there), over the years I have shown that picture to 10 different people - family and friends - of various ages and not one of them spotted anything unusual on the horizon. If Fleet was telling the truth, it must have been right then that he - a professional lookout - spotted the aberration - but then he said that he mentioned it to Lee and heard the latter's response before ringing the bells, by which time 25 further seconds had passed and the bow had closed on the iceberg by almost 1000 feet (second picture).

Fleet and Lee were experienced lookouts and likely had their own methods of using their vision at night to scan for obstructions. It’s not just about spotting the object itself—in this case, a dark iceberg—but also noticing any disruption in the background, such as stars or their reflections on the water.
Yes, but there are limitations to how far one can stretch abilities of normal human physiology. I know that Sam's diagrams are only illustrative but they give us a good idea about how it must have been for Fleet and Lee that night, staring constantly at the barely discernable horizon. (In fact, it was very likely worse because they had to see through the 22-knot cold wind blowing directly into their faces all the time.) You can see that under those conditions, disruption of the background that was in itself irregular, would have been difficult to make out.
 
Getting back to the book, One Starry Night, I read the blurb for it on Amazon. My BS detector lit up and its siren sounded. Here's how it starts.

"Why did the Titanic's lookouts fail to spot a massive iceberg as large as St. Paul's Cathedral and probably weighing a million tonnes which suddenly appeared ahead of the fast-approaching vessel in calm seas on a clear evening in April 1912?"

I can't take seriously the author of such blatant nonsense. St Paul's Cathedral is 158 metres long and 85 metres high. All the evidence is that the fatal berg was roughly 20 metres high. It may have weighed as little as 100,000 tonnes. It's small size was part of the problem. From the crows nest, it fell below the lookouts' horizon when it was about 1.5 miles away. There was no great object, looming up against the starry sky.

Sorry, Ian Donaldson, but I have better things to waste money on!
Some estimates place the iceberg at around 605ft (185m) deep and about 410ft (125m) long. St Paul's cathedral is some 574 feet (175 m) in length and 365 feet (111m) in height.
(Further information: Bigg, G. and Billings, S. (2014), The iceberg risk in the Titanic year of 1912: Was it exceptional? Significance, 11: 6.
The Titanic disaster – a meteorologist's perspective, Lawrence E.N. Weather Vol 55 March 2000)
Perhaps if you have enquired further you would have seen the source of the information. Not 'blatant nonsense'. Your source for the dimensions of St Paul's is not that much different from the book's claim either. As I recall, an icebergs mass is only about 1/8th above the surface? which would be within the books estimate.
Your rush to judgment, based on the opening sentence of Amazon's introductory page, betrays a much deeper indignation and had you gone on to read the full book you would them be in a position to comment. However, as it stands, you have exposed your prejudice towards the author and his book, so your premature views have no gravitas.
So much for open and friendly exchange? Your BS detector needs to be recalibrated!
 
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Thank you for your input.

If the lookouts were tested, it would have been according to the old regulations, not the newer ones. This is especially true for Fleet, who would have been tested in the aftermath of the disaster in Washington, long before the updated tests were introduced. The Americans likely would have been less concerned about potential press attention regarding an English vessel than the British might have been.

As for whether a test was conducted on British soil after the disaster but before the new eye test was introduced, I cannot say for certain (yet). However, I remain hopeful that one day I might be able to confirm this. Fingers crossed.

Where can the notes from the Marine Department that you are referring to be found?
The National Archives online have huge resources but require accurate search parameters to locate a topic. Also, much of the paperwork from around that time has not (yet) been digitized so cannot be downloaded. Alternatively, there is another online site which has a Titanic themed download available, PaperlessArchives.com. It comes with a cost, but has thousands of documents pertaining to the Titanic which you might have to troll through to find your eyesight report. It comes as a PDF file and can be searched with keywords, and maybe if you get lucky, you might just hit the motherlode! For the Washington angle, the US Library of Congress also has a huge database and might be worth a try. Happy Hunting!
 
Some estimates place the iceberg at around 605ft (185m) deep and about 410ft (125m) long.
Whose estimates were those? If it is an estimate based on the fact that roughly 1/8 of an iceberg is visible above the water, it is not necessarily accurate. That's because it is 1/8 of the overall mass of the berg and not the height, which taken on its own can be misleading. Moreover, the only survivors who saw the iceberg long enough to give a rough estimate of its size were the lookouts Fleet and Lee and to a lesser extent QM Rowe on the afterbridge. QM Olliver only saw the peak fleetingly as it passed the starboard wing and I seriously doubt if Boxhall saw anything.
 
Whose estimates were those? If it is an estimate based on the fact that roughly 1/8 of an iceberg is visible above the water, it is not necessarily accurate. That's because it is 1/8 of the overall mass of the berg and not the height, which taken on its own can be misleading. Moreover, the only survivors who saw the iceberg long enough to give a rough estimate of its size were the lookouts Fleet and Lee and to a lesser extent QM Rowe on the afterbridge. QM Olliver only saw the peak fleetingly as it passed the starboard wing and I seriously doubt if Boxhall saw anything.
To quote from Biggs article, the source of which can be accessed below:
"The iceberg that sank the Titanic at 42°N was relatively large at the time of impact.
Reports from survivors estimated it to be 15–31 metres high and 122 metres long. The rescue vessel, RMS Carpathia, reported sailing through ice up to 61 metres high on the way to the rescue, and on the following day. While the density of ice relative to water suggests that only 13% of an iceberg’s mass should be above water, the eroded shape of most bergs means that the depth-to-height ratio is more like 5:1, so the Titanic iceberg is likely to have been 90–185 metres deep, while being approximately 125 metres long.
The Weeks–Mellor stability criterion enables us to tie down the iceberg’s size more tightly. As an iceberg is eroded or melted preferentially from the side, its centre of gravity eventually becomes too high for the iceberg to remain upright and it rolls over (see ‘Fact file’, page 7). If the reported length of 125 metres is assumed to be roughly correct, then this stability constraint suggests that the vertical thickness of the iceberg could not have been greater than 100 metres, putting the likely above-water height to be around 15–17 metres, with a mass of 2 million tonnes. This is consistent with the dimensions of an iceberg with a red paint streak photographed by Captain de Carteret of the CS Minia the day after the sinking."
(Page 8 para 2)

Wiley Online Library https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com › doi › pdf · PDF file Page 8
 
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