Hi Dave,

The QE -- now that's an interesting tale from the early days of the war. Apparently, the Admiralty pulled off quite a ruse with that one, fooling not only the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine, but the people of Southampton as well, all of whom were fully expecting her arrival at that port, when in fact, she was instead run flat out straight from the Clyde to New York. The story is covered here: http://uncommonjourneys.com/pages/qe/qewartime.htm , and Steven Anderson posted a few photos of her NY arrival from his collection here:
https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/6937/49080.html?1128040292

Regards,
Scott Andrews
 
I see that John Maxstone-Graham says Queen Elizabeth sailed for New York with launching gear still attached. He doesn't say when or where it was removed and the hull anti-fouled. It may have been in Sydney or Singapore.
 
Some of the conversion work onboard was done at Todd Shipyards across the Hudson River at Hoboken, NJ. There were also several east coast US shipyards with dry dock facilities capable of handling ships of that size, with both Boston and Newport News being possible candidates. So, perhaps she may not have had to sail as far as Sydney or Singapore while fighting against the drag induced by both a fouled bottom and the remains of the launch cradles still riveted to her hull.

Regards,
Scott Andrews
 
Hi Timothy,

quote:

My thoughts on this being a replacement for the Titanic (and later the Britannic II -- come on, now, the Homeric could not properly keep up with the Olympic and Majestic) is that we know that White Star wanted a big replacement ship...

I agree. While I have always been a fan of the Homeric, she was really out of her depth on the three-ship express service, and IMHO the main factor that White Star’s express trio did not quite match Cunard’s service for passenger numbers. As has been remarked upon many times, Homeric’s service speed was designed at 18.5 knots, and although it was supposedly increased by a knot after 1924 she remained slow; the average speed figures for 1923 bear this out:

Majestic: 23.29 knots; Mauretania: 23.29 knots; Leviathan: 23.00 knots; Olympic: 21.44 knots; Berengaria: 20.40 knots; Homeric: 18.11 knots.

In fact, 1923 was a slow year for Olympic, making the White Star trio’s speed differential even starker.

Homeric did earn a degree of popularity, yet I think White Star was disappointed at her passenger lists. While Majestic was more than a match for Berengaria, and Olympic was relatively competitive with the Aquitania, Homeric was no match for the Mauretania’s popularity. In 1922, her debut year, she carried the highest number of passengers she ever would in a single year. Only for three years in the 1920s did she average more than six hundred passengers per crossing, whereas her rival Mauretania was averaging up to eight hundred passengers. In 1923, Majestic’s average passenger lists were more than double Homeric’s. It seems fair to say that Majestic swept the floor with the competition, carrying over 8,000 passengers more than her nearest rival that year, but if it’s unfair to compare Homeric to her then a stark contrast can be made with Olympic. Although it is by no means a like-on-like comparison, by the end of 1920 Olympic had carried more passengers than the Homeric would in her ten years on the Atlantic run from 1922. In 1923, Olympic's average passenger carryings were over forty percent above Homeric's, and she carried over 11,000 more passengers on a heavier schedule. More tellingly, by early 1926 Majestic had been in service for nearly four years, and as the most popular liner afloat for several of those years she had carried as many passengers as the Homeric ever would on the Atlantic.

Broadly speaking, whereas Majestic had up to half of the trio’s yearly passenger share, Olympic had around a third or more and Homeric was left with the remainder. By 1924 her average passenger lists had dropped every year; they began to rise slowly in 1925-26 before the good year of 1927. I think it was quickly clear to White Star that they needed another liner of the Majestic or Olympic’s calibre, and soon after the Homeric had entered service. However, it is easy to be too harsh on the Homeric. As I have said, she was competing on a service for which she was not suited, and had she been on another — secondary — service then it could be argued that she would have been very popular indeed. She would have stood comparison with any of the 'Big Four,' I would wager. She was a fine ship, and it’s sad she did not have the career that she could have enjoyed

Best wishes,

Mark.​
 
Hi Scott,

quote:

Perhaps in the beginning, this ship was being considered as much more of a consort to the Olympic and Majestic in a traditional three-ship weekly service, where 21 to 23 knots would have been acceptable.

I tend to agree. Had the Oceanic had a service speed of even 25 knots, Majestic would have had trouble keeping pace -- as that was the speed of her fastest ever eastbound crossing set in the summer of 1925. When the Queen Mary was completed in 1936, Aquitania's new propellers helped to increase her average speed by over a knot, yet it was another heavily unbalanced schedule. One wonders what would have happened in the meantime, if Oceanic had been completed without a better-matched running mate?

Best wishes,

Mark.​
 
"One wonders what would have happened in the meantime, if Oceanic had been completed without a better-matched running mate?"

One wonders, indeed. So far in my research, I've not found one word on this subject. For the short term, at least, the Olympic and Majestic would have been good ships for the three ship weekly service. But would the Oceanic been fast enough to have one sister and the two share a weekly service between them? I'm afraid we'll never know -- I'd just love a crack at the private correspondence of some of the principals of the White Star Line and Harland & Wolff from this period.

Suffice it to say that the Homeric would have been assigned to another route or service.

Which of the two remaining ships would another Oceanic class ship replaced? The Majestic or the Olympic? (And if Olympic, why not name the new ship Olympic II?)
 
If WS had gone ahead and planned a new 3 ship express service in the 1920s it would have been ill-conceived in my opinion. The technology was becoming available to reduce the number of liners to 2 on the main Atlantic run. The Bremen and Europa, under construction when Oceanic was being seriously contemplated, probably could have maintained the first 2 ship service if they had operated only from England to the U.S. (Although this would have made little sense for a German company)
I think it would have been best to build Oceanic III as a turbo-electeric liner with a cruising speed of over 28 knots. I am not convinced that diesel power was mature enough to power an express liner. Turbo electric would have offered several operational advantages and could have offered an acceptable middle-ground approach to the geared steam turbine and diesel plant.

Brent
 
Hi Timothy,

quote:

For the short term, at least, the Olympic and Majestic would have been good ships for the three ship weekly service. But would the Oceanic been fast enough to have one sister and the two share a weekly service between them?

I wish this was knowable. I agree with your comments about the three-ship service, but Oceanic would need to have been very fast indeed even if the Majestic's speed could have been increased somehow.

quote:

...Which of the two remaining ships would another Oceanic class ship replaced? The Majestic or the Olympic? (And if Olympic, why not name the new ship Olympic II?)

Although I have a soft spot for Olympic, I think Majestic would have been retained. If not in sentimental terms, in sheer size she was White Star's flagship in the 1920s. However, somehow I can't see Olympic being retired as early as the late 1920s. That said, it's hard to see what alternative service she might have been suited to? Cruising -- perhaps -- would have shown a profit in the depression years, yet she was hardly suited to warmer climates.

Best wishes,

Mark.​
 
Hello

I hate to spoil your fun but I am certain beyond all doubt that the model in the photo posted by Dave Gittins above is not of the mysterious Oceanic III, but of Belgenland of 1923.
 
Was'nt Belgenland's funnels taller than what is pictured? As Belgenland was created from another 'mysterious' unbuilt White Star liner Ceric, could it be a later attempt at recreating it? Where did you get information of it being the Belgenland?

Thanks
 
The funnels and masts have been sawed down to the same level (perhaps for storage purposes?), But I am certain the model is either Belgenland or her unbuilt sister 'Nederland'(H&W Yd No.469). The arrangement of the promenades and superstructures only match them. Oceanic would likely have had a streamlined single superstucture, and four screws (necessary for speeds in excess of 21 knots). Someone, somewhere has misidentified this model as oceanic.
 
That B&W image of the model, where's that from? Is that one of H&W's models? Really interesting.

NICE model Richard! Cool! How big (L, W, H) did you say that came to?
 
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