Pieces of the wreck for sale

"Obviously, you're one of those very, very few people. Remember, though, that you are but one of hundreds, if not thousands, of people on this board. I'd like to hear from others who also think there's a double standard at work here "

I tend to agree. While I have my reservations about salvaging from the wreck, I extend that to encompass all wrecks and grave sites. I tend to lean more toward ambivalence on the issue, at any rate, and I am glad there are people like the Sauders, James Cameron, et. al. who show more responsibility and respect than, say, Geller.

I've avoided these salvage debates mainly because of other members who have made a mission out of antagonizing myself and others who share similar views. I don't enjoy the debate, at any rate, and I would rather avoid a potential flame war on a board such as this.


Adam
 
Is there a double standard involved here? You bet there is. Somehow, there is perceived to be something almost holy about Titanic that, when you think about it, makes no real sense if Lusitania, Empress of Ireland, Andrea Doria etc. can be plundered for all they are worth.

I am not saying that I approve. My feelings on the subject are frankly ambivalent and I can understand both sides of the argument, but why Titanic is entitled to its own unique code of conduct (so to speak) is beyond me. There is really no way to justify these double standards- either it's okay to raid the wreckage of ships on which people died, or it isn't. The ship's identity is irrelevant.
 
Thanks to the three people (Randy, Adam, and Matthew) who took the time to post. (Please notice I didn't include Geoff because there's still some debate about him being a person....)

I'd still like to hear from people who believe Titanic should be placed in a different category from other wrecks where near equal numbers of innocent people lost their lives, some of which are known without doubt to be graves. The Empress of Ireland is a good example.

Despite my stance on salvage, I was exceedingly happy the day Ireland placed their Heritage Order on the Lusitania wreck. Basically, it states that nothing can be done to the wreck without the approval of the Irish government. And, fortunately, they have been very conservative in giving permission, even to the supposed owner of the wreck. As far as I know, nothing has been brought up since the order was placed except a few pieces of steel for metallurgical examination.

Eric Sauder
 
I don't see any reason why the Titanic should be put into any special catagory from any other shipwreck. While tragic and endlessly fascinating, she was just one of many, some of which have been a lot worse.

This particular site at http://www.northernmaritimeresearch.com/ documents over 100,000 for just North America alone.

Having said this much, salvage is not really a hot button issue with me these days. One's results may vary of course, and often do. Quite passionately I might add if any of the recent threads here are any indication.
 
Hi to all,
Im not a regular poster on here - usually hanging out at the Debris Field ((...ducks as objects come hurling at him...!!)), but I wanted to add my thoughts to this thread on salvage.

I must come down squarely on Eric Sauders side here, as being very much Pro Salvage - but also Like Mr Sauder - SALVAGE FOR A GOOD CAUSE.

I remember as a teenager shouting at my TV, when Ballard voiced his opinions about not disturbing the Titanic Wreck.
99.5% of the worlds population ((Who are interested)), will never be able to afford the £35,000 to dive down to the Titanic wreck, hence we will never get the chance to see these items as they lay.
From an educational and Historical point of view, there is no better way of getting people in touch with the past, than to be able to reach out and actually touch a piece of some item or object that was there.
In this case we are talking about Titanic, Lusitania etc, but the same holds true for the cannon that fired at Gettysburg, the Sword that fought at Bosworth field or the tank that carried Rommell in North Africa.

Objects, that through fate, become linked to important points in history should - and in my opinion MUST be preserved for future generations - not through any morbid obsessions - but as simple statements that help people to visualise and reach out with their minds - to help them to mentally experience a point in history that has been and gone.

I applaud Mr Sauder for being Philanthropic enough to purchase items of Historical Importance - and then pass them on to various Museums - I wish I had a huge budget to be able to do something similar and I'd snatch up every artifact I could find and dump the lot on Merseyside Maritime Museums Doorstep ((I simply cannot understand their reluctance to accept your donations - they didn't have any trouble accepting the Cunard - White Star Line Coathanger from 1934 and Cunard Silver spoon from 1906 that I recently donated to them!!))

Objects that are under the sea have a limited life before they are gone for good. Therefore - and IMHO, as much as is humanly possible should be recovered from these "Keystones in History", and preserved to tell their stories for future generations.

Ok - I'm off my soapbox now.......
Nige
 
Nigel:

Thank you for a suttle, yet very explanatory post. I could not agree with you more.

Many of the keepsakes from America's game are on permanent loan, and housed at a much fitting location...the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

On one of the past expeditions to BRITANNIC, one of the divers discovered a WHITE STAR ceramic cup (The common type littering TITANIC's debris field) photographed it, then returned it. Sure, it was an honorable gesture, but by displaying it at the Imperial War Museum it then becomes tangible, and it's story is that much more telling.

Just the other day I saw a *cherried out* 1957 Studabaker. I put my hand on it, and pondered at the life that was...

...the year I was born...

Michael A, Cundiff
USA
 
I wonder if all of you that pontificate about the pros and cons of salvaging artifacts from these various shipwrecks from the 20th century ever think about the traveling King Tut exhibition, containing the remains of a boy king who was murdered several thousand years ago, or the Mummy Roadshow which is currently on American TV. These skeletal remains were from REAL human beings, yet we parade them around like toys. Is that OK, or is there a time limit here which separates these two types of events? Is retreiving bones from victims of the Empress of Ireland any different that retrieving and profiting from the bones of our ancestors long gone and perhaps long forgotten?

Bruce Tompkins
USA
 
Bruce,I'm not sure that any of us have ever said otherwise. I'm in total agreement regarding the exhibition of human remains, be they modern day or thousands of years old - they are simply displayed to appeal to the mawkish amongst us.
Personally I have no real problem with other salvaged articles being put on display, yet I can appreciate and respect the attitudes of others.
I did not visit the King Tut exhibition when it was here, although my daughters did and pronounced it very moving. Frankly, I see little fascination in a number of old bones - no matter how well they may have been arranged, they did, at one time belong to a human being and although nobody obviously knew them, I would hate to think that at some time in the future my own final resting place should be disturbed by someone out to make quick money and show me off to the general public. There are those on this Board who will tell you that I'm frightening enough in life without waiting for skeletal remains!

Geoff
 
Just feeling the need to throw my two cents in here, so please don't lynch me if I sound like a complete moron...
My humble opinion is that unless there is a good reason for salvage and the items removed are carefully catalogued and preserved it shouldn't be allowed for any maritime wreck. The thing that many seem to forget when it comes to ships (particularly the Titanic) that have sunk in the past hundred years is that there is very little aboard that cannot be found on land. Especially when it comes to the Titanic, many pro-salvage people only want to see the items raised because of their connection to the ship, and since the Titanic is much more high-profile than the Lusitania, it's understandable why so many people get outraged over salvage on the Titanic but never about salvage from the Empress of Ireland or the Edmund Fitzgerald. I myself am against salvage, and I get a strange feeling of satisfaction knowing that for the most part my favorite liner has barely been touched. I can understand where the pro-salvage people are coming from, but many salvage operations have not done very much to keep the items raised properly preserved. This is most evident in what has happened to many items raised from the Andrea Doria and the Empress of Ireland back in the 60's, which were not properly treated upon their salvage. Somebody brought up the removal of artifacts from King Tutankhamen's tomb, and I'd like to point out in fairness to Dr. Carter that
a.) almost all of the items found in the tomb had never been seen before, and offered a very good insight into ancient Egyptian life
b.) Carter was sure to properly mark which item was found where and when it was removed
Personally I don't think that this compares in any way to blasting away a propeller prop from what is essentially a mass grave, melting it down and selling it off later as a golf club.
But, I could be crazy...
 
I totally agree Joshua,
It would be like people in 90 years or so wanting to dig up the land where the twin towers once stood to collect items like pens & bricks from the lost towers. At present that seems sick & cruel yet once most of us who actually remember the event & the aftermath are gone theres no one with a real set against it.
I think it's sad to think people would like to raise items from a ship where so many men, woman & children lost their lives, as i'm sure there would have to be several bodies still down there, like in the wreck of the Empress OF Ireland.
 
Joshua, you make some very good points.
b) in particular which I consider an act of desecration not because the screw was removed, one is the focus of annual memorial services in Liverpool, but melting it down for golf clubs.
We would only see such greed in this capitalist age!
I do support removing items that are of genuine importance before they are lost so we ahve something tangible to show our children that was a part of the Lusitania. If we can't retell our stories by film,museum and artifact displays we will loose them over time as those who hold them as important die off. Culture or language only survives if it is transmitted from one generation to another.

cheers

Martin
 
As I said, I believe that there should be some set of guidelines to determine the necessity for salvage of an artifact from a wreck. Unfortunately since many countries don't exercise their territorial claims to the wrecks that lie in their waters these important ships are essentially sitting ducks for the first person out to make a profit. The Empress of Ireland is a perfect example of the horrible acts of destruction that can happen to an unprotected liner. I was very happy to hear that the Irish government has finally stepped up to the plate and is doing something to protect the Lusitania, but I have to admit that it feels like it's too little too late. I think that most of the items raised from maritime wrecks are, when it comes down to it, nothing or particular importance. As I pointed out earlier, when an item is removed from an ancient tomb or temple it's original location is carefully photographed and catalogued. Granted, this method would be much more difficult underwater, especially when the items being raised are great in number (coal, etc), however I don't think that many of these items are important enough to be raised in the first place, especially when you consider that they will probably wind up in private collections, far from the eyes of the general public. And so, before I get any more long-winded, this is a personal set of guidelines that I had to come up with for a report in high school, and I thought they might be of interest here. Keep in mind, these apply only to ships that have sunk recently enough for there to be items found on land that closely match those that might be on the ship.

a.) No item can be removed from the hull of any wreck except in cases in which the item is extremely scarce and can be better studied on land. However in cases such as these the item must not be attached to the ship in such a way that drilling or blasting would be required for it's removal. If the item can be removed without damaging the ship then it must first be photographed in place (no human tampering so that a better photograph can be taken), identified and then removed. Immediately upon its removal a weighted, numbered marker must be left in place of the salvaged item in order for the area around it to be studied during future dives.

b.) Items such as coal, dinnerware or any other debris which is easily identified and is found in abundance is prohibited from salvage.

c.) Items that are recognizable as personal to possibly deceased passengers or crew must not be raised without written consent from the family of the deceased owner (in the event that the item is identified as belonging to a particular person).

d.) The structural integrity of a sunken ship must never be compromised during the process of salvage. Any practice which will cause damage to the wreck (i.e. blasting) is strictly prohibited, no matter the cause.

e.) Each salvaged item must be carefully catalogued and treated upon its arrival at the surface.

f.) No salvaged item may be physically altered in any way beyond the standard methods of preservation (i.e. the cutting in half of the Big Piece raised from the Titanic site in 1998).

g.) Salvaged items may not be sold to private collectors. When a salvaged item has been studied and tested as thoroughly as possible, it may be donated to a museum on permanent loan, or, if the salvor wishes to do so, it may be returned to the wreck site in the same place and position from which it was removed.

h.) The original location of all salvaged items, no matter how small or large, must be photographed prior to removal, and upon removal a weighted, numbered marker must be left in the item's place.
 
Joshua wrote: "I was very happy to hear that the Irish government has finally stepped up to the plate and is doing something to protect the Lusitania, but I have to admit that it feels like it's too little too late."

But that is not the fault of the Irish government. Remember that when the salvage work was done on Lusitania, the wreck lay outside Ireland's territorial waters. That means that no matter what the Irish government thought about the salvage, they could do nothing to stop it. Now that Ireland's waters extend twelve miles off shore, the government can do and has done (rightly or wrongly) what they need to do to stop salvage.

Eric Sauder
 
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