Roger Lightoller's Birthdate

Hi, Sharon!

As previously stated on this thread, I believe that he made those demands about hotel accomodations for the simple pleasure of twisting some Senatorial tails a bit. Snobbery was not characteristic of Lightoller. Practical jokes of all shapes and sizes were. Considered as something akin to the "One-Gun Salute to Washington," it makes sense. Wade just didn't get it.
 
I think I strongly disagree here, if I understand the gist regarding Wade's interpretions. Whether Lightoller was coming from a position of practical joker or just plain 'pain in the S' makes very little difference within the context.

For Lightoller to have survived a disaster involving 1500 deaths -- many of those Americans -- then get snippy with a formal government investigation about the officers' "accommodations" suggests incredible gall, *regardless* of the underlying motivation. It's clear that Lightoller and others were probably none too happy about being detatined, but that's hardly the point, is it?.

What I find amazing is that any individual or people would react as if a "foreign" government had no business investigating incidents leading to the deaths of so many of its own nationals. Yet this was precisely the attitude broadly bandied about.

Wasn't it Wade who pointed out how Senator Smith finally had to offer the rebuke to Lightoller, "Your Captain now sleeps beneath the waves!"? Is this 'nasty and hostile', or just a reality check in its own right?

I don't think Wynn Wade "didn't get it here" at all; in fact, if not for these new perspectives based on his original research, we might still merely be singing Lightoller's one-sided praises. He was a man, and he did have faults.

In a good cause it's labeled obstinacy;
in a bad one, pig-headedness.

(Lightoller, I suspect, displayed plenty of both.)
 
Just a few general comments from someone who is both an admirer of Wade and Lightoller, even when she has 'issues' with both of them.We can only speculate what Lightoller's motivations were - perhaps we're attributing underlying motive that have no basis in fact, and he was not simply throwing up obstructions for the various reasons that have been suggested. Wade, in keeping with his generally unsympathetic depiction of the Titanic's second officer, implies that Lightoller had ulterior motives and that the rebuke delivered by one of Smith's agents (not Smith himself) was justified, but that of course is a matter of opinion. Given what Lightoller had just experienced, I don't think he needed a landsman's reminder just where his crewmates had wound up - no one was in a better position to know that than Lightoller himself, and his subsequent actions indicated that he was very conscious of those lives that had been lost.

Our interpretation of historical events and figures runs through cycles of revisionism and reactionism (one need only look at the waxing and waning reputations of Scott and Shackleton in Antarctic research to see evidence of that). It's interesting to trace the interpretation of Lightoller, for example, from the warm admiration of 'A Night to Remember' to the more tempered and occasionally critical interpretation of 'The Night Lives On' - and these were works by the same author.

An appraisal of any historical figure needs balance, although this doesn't necessarily mean substituting a pit for a pedestal (as some historians and writers seem to believe!). Wade's work was an important step in working towards a more realistic appraisal of many figures in the disaster, Lightoller included. In my humble opinion he took this perhaps a bit too far towards the negative - I've mentioned before, for example, my strong objections to passages such as the one suggesting Lightoller had a keen eye on promotion during the inquiry as with the deaths of the ship's other senior officers there were now a few vacancies in the line (very nasty implication there that Lightoller was happy to scramble over the barely cold bodies of men who were both colleagues and in at least one instance a personal friend).

As for Lightoller's feelings about the inquiry - objectionable though they might be to some, they were a widespread reality in 1912 (Joseph Conrad, for example, had some strong words to say about the subject). A BOT inquiry would be anticipated - a congressional inquiry was unprecedented. I think it would be rather unrealistic in the circumstances to expect that some of the Titanic's crew would be anything other than wary and indeed resentful at a foreign power holding such an inquiry and preventing their return home (please note - I am not arguing the rights and wrongs of such an inquiry, or of such feelings, but rather trying to look at it from the perspective of a British seaman in 1912). No doubt had it been an US registered ship crewed predominantly by Americans, owned by British interests and sunk in international waters there would be an understandable resentment among the American crew at being detained in England for an inquiry.

In the end, however, Lightoller *did* co-operate with the inquiry, gave his evidence, and took a role as senior surviving officer in managing the rest of the crew who were testifying.

Interpretations of the incident at the hotel are subjective, and as this discussion has demonstrated open to a number of different readings. Personally I believe his own conduct was perfectly in accordance with the way seaman traditionally greeted inquries, as Marcus outlined in 'The Maiden Voyage'. Seafarer and author Frank Bullen, writing in 1900, captured some of the suspicion with which inquiries were traditionally viewed:

I do not mean to speak evil of dignities, God knows; but the proceedings of some of these courts, abroad especially, are sufficient to make angels weep.

~ Inger
 
Inger--

Well, she was technically American-owned, so I suppose that's a point in favor of the Americans claiming right to their Inquiry. Doesn't mean that made it appear any more right to the crew!

The fact she was British registered and had a British crew though, does make for a little snarl there...easy enough to understand the reactions of the crew, particularly after such an incident, when probably the thing they'd want most would be to just go home and be with family and all.

As to the quartering incident, one wonders how the other officers officers thought of it, or the rest of the crew. In my own opinion, I think it was Lightoller trying to twist Smith's tail a bit; his own version of grousing about things and acting out rather than simply saying precisely what he thought of Smith and where he could...er...shove his Inquiry.

Re: Wade, Lightoller really did take the fall on that, wrongly so. True, watching ANTR one gets the impression that Lightoller is God, or something close to, often at the expense of his fellow officers. So a new look was due, but Wade really swung the pendulum the other way. His look at Lowe, who rarely gets five words in anything, is good, but I do quibble with his portrayal of Lightoller, and he is pretty harsh on Murdoch, as I recall.

(For example, not having the book on me at the moment, I seem to remember he's one of those claiming that Murdoch should have hit the berg stem-on, conveniently ignoring the massive casualties that would have caused in the forward quarters and the hell Murdoch would have caught for that fiasco?)

As to Lightoller's eagerness to play "company man", I do wonder about his testimony regarding J. Bruce. His claims that he ordered Ismay to a boat when it's pretty well known that he allowed virtually no man in comes across a bit odd. Either he's fibbing on that regard or his policy on boat-loading took a complete 180 just for his Line president. That makes him appear, appear mind you, either a liar or a lackey, and I'm not quite sure how to reconcile that with the Lightoller I know. Anyone else want to ring in on this one? I'd be interested in different perceptions on that part.

But still, Wade's view that being the senior survivor of the disaster would be beneficial to his career and implying that Lightoller sought to profit off that rubs me the wrong way. Especially after the disaster claimed his good friend, William Murdoch. Seeing the letter he took to write to Ada Murdoch, I can't see him rejoicing at the man's death in any way whatsoever.
 
Lightoller wasn't claiming that he had ordered ismay into a boat - rather, he said that he had heard that Wilde bundled him into C:

Mr. LIGHTOLLER. It is that Chief Officer Wilde was at the starboard collapsible boat in which Mr. Ismay went away, and that he told Mr. Ismay, "There are no more women on board the ship." Wilde was a pretty big, powerful chap, and he was a man that would not argue very long. Mr. Ismay was right there. Naturally he was there close to the boat, because he was working at the boats and he had been working at the collapsible boat, and that is why he was there, and Mr. Wilde, who was near him, simply bundled him into the boat.

I agree that it was good to see some focus on Lowe (and Perkis, for that matter). One point that irked me to no end, although possibly not Wade's fault, was the reference to 'Moody, Officer' in the index. Not even a first initial. Passengers, I note, were given fore names or initials...the youngest officer evidently didn't warrant such treatment.

One thing that has struck me is the extraordinary warmth of feeling regarding Lightoller expressed by those who knew him, both from colleagues and those who came into contact with him in other ways. It has thus far largely eluded publication (other than a reference to the Simpson correspondence in Stephen Cameron's 'Belfast's Own'), but I've found instances of Lightoller maintaining contact with the families of lost crewmen long after what would be perfunctory, anticipated condolences. I've also found references to him in correspondence pre-dating the disaster that indicates both the popularity and respect he commanded.

There are some fascinating references to Lightoller in the 'Portrush Letter', to be published in the White Star Journal in September.
 
Despite Lightoller's stellar performance at both inquiries I really think he got shafted later on. He along with the other surviving officers would never receive White Star/Cunard White Star Commands of their own later on. Lightoller's hostility at the American inquiry is understandable considering what he'd just been through. And Senator Smith did ask alot of absurd questions--there's even a little known melodrama where Smith had to know what happened when Lightoller said Good evening to J B Ismay. (You can't make this stuff up). Lightoller later criticized Smiths abmysmal lack of knowledge of the sea and I think this bitterness is justified.
 
Inger--

Yaaack. That's what I get for not having the book by me. Must go berate myself...but the issue of Lights claiming the impetus of the "Cedric" telegram still seems a tad fishy to me. Go figure.

Yeah, I too notice the "Moody, Officer" as well now that I found the book, and the limiting of mention of him to the mere convenience of being the phone-answerer, much like in Cameron's movie. One wonders if Cameron leaned heavily on Wade, seeing the portrayals of Lightoller and Murdoch=bad, Lowe=totally good and Moody=who the heck is that?

Sharon--

Well, they pretty well all got a nice big shaft. After all, to be posted to a ship like Titanic holds all indication that these fellas were the truly the best of the best and could very well expect command in the future: the quite near future in some cases.

Yep, Smith asked some pretty awful questions, and apparently some touchy ones as well. Despite his er...marine incompetence...and insensitive nature towards the survivors (but do recall that PTSD wasn't even a concept back then) I do believe he had good intentions. It's just his implementation that was rather flawed.

And naturally, we humans do tend to judge upon the presentation...so Smith's intent is understanble, but so too is the annoyance of folks like Harold Lowe and Charles Lightoller. Ah, the glory of hindsight...grants us plenty of discussion, hey?
 
I still think the American Inquiry was hastily slapped together in response to the rage and sorrow of this horrific disaster. The Carpathia had barely docked and yet Titanic's crew, still suffering from the shock and trauma over the tragedy were slapped by Smith's committe with subponeas demanding their appearance and delaying their return to England. Of course, Smith was outraged by Ismay's telegram demanding that either the Celtic or the Cedric--I forget which-- was to be held up so Titanic's crew could return to England. Remember these men had families to support and their pay stopped the instant the waves closed over Titanic's stern. It was imperative that they be allowed to go home and find another ship pronto. In those politically incorrect days there was no workers compensation or welfare. Needless to say, Smith was unaware of these little problems.
 
Sharon, the business of the crew's pay stopping at the time of the sinking is only half true. That was what was traditionally done. In the case of Titanic the company decided very soon after the sinking to pay the crew for all the time they spent away from England. It's shown on the Account of Wages forms as a bonus of some many days.

They also had Workmen's Compensation in Britain in 1912 and the dependants of those who died were paid out quite promptly. Payments varied between about £250 to £300. In a purely monetary sense, some of the dependants came out of it rather well, given that the men lost were irregular workers in many cases.

The real reason for wanting to get the crew home was that with the ship gone, they were no longer under the command of her officers and were likely to get up to mischief in New York. That had happened before. Not all sailors are angels.

I must say that I agree with you to some extent on the inconsiderate way in which Senator Smith rushed to start his inquiry. Apart from his own very sizeable ego, he was probably aware that the British Ambassador was working behind the scenes to see if the inquiry could be stopped. By the time the British government had decided not to interfere, the inquiry had been going for several days. Also, Bruce Ismay had rushed in to promise full cooperation. I'm afraid I take a rather cynical view of Smith, who in my view used the inquiry to push his own agenda. It's instructive to read the Senate's instructions to the committee and remember them when reading the transcript.
 
I'm no fan of Senator Smith, that's for sure. He's no hero in my book--just another self absorbed politician out for some headlines. The Carpathia had barely docked when the political wh~~~, hacks and goons (they existed back in l9l2 just as they do today--nothing much has changed) pounced on all these traumatized people handing out their forms like tissuepaper. For a fleeting instant, I even felt sorry for Ismay because, despite his dubious escape from the Titanic which forever branded him a coward, he saw his company's greatest achievement sink in the North Atlantic. And of course, a wrathful Senate had the knives sharpened for the attack and their minds made up. They were determined to have a scapegoat and a pound of flesh to boot.
 
>>He's no hero in my book--just another self absorbed politician out for some headlines.<<

Ain't no other kind Sharon. At least none that I've personally observed. On the matter of scapegoats, it might be well to consider that Wyn Craig Wade may well have been right when he suggested that the real target was J.P. Morgan. Populist Republican that he was, Smith hated the trusts in general and despised Morgan in particular.

It's shortcomings notwithstanding, I think we still owe the U.S.Senate Inquiry a very great debt. Smith & Co. were the first on the scene to start asking some very hard questions that needed to be asked, and they got on the record views, experiences and recollections from the survivors while that information was freshest on their minds.

Senator Smith may not have succeeded in his personal agenda, but the information uncovered is priceless!
 
In many ways, Smith was ahead of his time and to be admired. He campaigned for the rights of black Americans, an elected Senate and other good causes. If he hated the trusts it was with good reason. Pity he's not around to stick it up certain crooked executives today.

His inquiry will always be treasured by Titanic fans, but a great deal of it had nothing to do with the Senate resolution that set up his committee. Much of it was a fishing expedition aimed at things like insurance fraud (which could have been checked by a cable to Lloyd's) and Marconi's dealing with The New York Times. He was also looking for evidence that would show Ismay had 'knowledge and privity' of negligence under the terms of the Harter Act. This was a matter for the civil courts, not the Senate. Senator Works pointed out that the committee could have uncovered everything that was relevant to the Senate in a few hours.
 
This past April I directed a three evening series of readings from the transcripts of the Senate inquiry. I went into the project viewing Smith as a hack; but the more the actor who played him and I dug into the text, the more respect we both developed for him. Now I view Smith as a man of principal, integrity, and intelligence who generally asked the right questions. He does have some clumsiness about him; sometimes his questions are tedious and repetitive, but when the light comes on and you see what he's going, you realize that he's being very thorough.

The fact that he acted quickly, the fact that the hearings began hardly more than twelve hours after Carpathia arrived in New York, assured that the testimony and the recollections are fresh and as accurate as possible.

I only wish he had called more witnesses. I think the record the transcripts provide would be even more interesting had people like Jack Thayer, Daisy Spedden, Molly Brown, and a greater variety of third class passengers been asked to testify.
 
We naturally would like him to have called all and sundry, but, as I've pointed out, he greatly exceeded the terms of the Senate resolution anyway. On the third class passengers, Smith actually limited himself by only asking for passengers who spoke English. Thus we get nothing about the problems caused for those who did not. He didn't call any stewards from third class either, unlike Mersey.

We sometimes need to remember that neither Smith nor Mersey conducted their inquiries for the amusement of 21st century Titanic fans.

You mention his tedious and repetitive questions. A good example of his method working is his interrogation of Lightoller. Lightoller revealed a great deal more to 'Watertight Smith' than he would have liked to admit.
 
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