Speed After Collision

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Hi Adam,

that Beesley was an academic does not mean that he was right with everything.
The main problem is that in his book he has some facts different as in his letter he wrote on board Carpathia directly after the sinking. There for example is no mention that he looked over the side to see a white foam also not the visit to a bath room with the 2 ladies and several more.
Beesley like other survivors "corrected" himself (in his first version he had the starboard and port side wrong) and may have add additional stuff. This was also done by other survivors as Archibald Gracie and Clear Cameron for example.

I don't see any miscommunication between the bridge and engine room. The only communication was via the engine telegraph which according to Olliver was operated by Captain Smith after the collision. There are several other survivors who mentioned that the engines stopped, then went on again and stopped finally.
But I agree, the real reason is only known by those who did not survive.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hello Adam.

That was Beesley's first trip across the Atlantic in a big ship. He was highly intelligent but not a marine expert. Understandably, he would make a few mistakes.
He asked the ladies to feel the vibration of the piping in the bathroom. The domestic water sytem was probably operated by a steam-driven circulating pump in the engine room. Piping on board ship is a great conductor of sound and vibration. Steam pumps vibrate.

Titanic stopped moving very shortly after she hit the iceberg. We know from Lightoller that she had slowed to below 6 knots a few minutes after impact. This is understandable since she had just dragged her underwater starboard side along about 200 feet of ice, was turning rapidly and her engines were running astern. Under these circumstances, any ship would lose way very quickly indeed. So much so that it is quite possible that her engines never attained full revolutions in the astern mode before hey were stopped again. Smith and Murdoch would look astern to watch the propeller wash pattern, that's how they would know how quickly she was slowing down. If they allowed the way to come off the ship too quickly, she might have started moving slightly astern. To stop this and the ship, Smith would play with short ahead/astern movements. His aim would be to bring this ship to a complete halt while inspections were being carried out. At that time, it should be remembered that there was no indication that the lifeboats would be needed. It follows that when Titanic was thus dead in the water, she would be pointin in the wrong direction for resumption of passage after inspections were carried out and all was found well. You will rememeber that on his first inspection trip, Boxhall did not find any indication of damage whatsover and reported that fact on his return to the bridge. It is therefore highly probable that Captain Smith order a hard-a [ort h elm order and gave the engines a quick burst ahead to bring Titanic back onto her original heading. Thus, the ship would be ready to resume passage when the all-clear was given.

There is possibly evidence of this and it came from Greaser Scott. Most of his evidence regarding engine movements can be taken with a pinch of salt except perhaps for one:

"5565. Did you hear any signal given to the bridge? A: - From the engine room?
5566. Yes? A- Yes.
5567. What? A: - When they rang the stand-by. Is that what you mean?
5568. Yes? A: - That is all I heard, and then they rang down, "Slow ahead!"

That series of events contains one significant phrase and its' "stand-by". "Stand-by" indicates to the bridge that either the engines are now ready for use or that the engines will be needed imminently by the bridge. The order is given by alternatively and rapidly throwing the telegraph levers from FULL AHEAD to FULL ASTERN several times. The sound is unmistakeable and neither Scott nor anyone else needed to see the telegraphs to understand what was required. Since "Stand-by" was followed by an AHEAD movement, that is quite possibly the time when Captain Smith ordered hard-a-port on the helm. It is also possible that the engines would not have attained full RPM for HALF AHEAD since the ship would answer the helm before that happened. At that moment , Smith would ring down STOP and order the helm amidship.

Just a few thoughts.

Jim C.

 

[Adam Went]

Hi all,

Ioannis:

I'm not saying that because Lawrence Beesley was an academic, he must have been spot on about everything. Anyone can make mistakes. But as I said earlier, he was travelling alone on board the ship, and did not have other pressing concerns on his mind such as ensuring his family was ready to leave the ship, and so on and so forth. He also wrote one of the most detailed accounts of the sinking from a survivor, and so therefore what he has said should be given due merit and consideration. Inconsistencies or not, his is more likely to be one of the accurate versions for multiple reasons.

As he himself states in his book, he was not intending to write the entire version of his story for public consumption until he was persuaded to do so some weeks after the sinking, at a dinner. Therefore, when he wrote his letter on Carpathia, he was only giving an abbreviated version of events in the wake of a terrible tragedy. I don't blame him that he didn't get everything right at that time - who would? People are not robots.

In any case, you seem to be agreeing with me that whatever the surrounding circumstances, the engines of the Titanic did stop, start again, and then stop for good. So I must admit i'm struggling to see what you're actually disagreeing with me about.....

Jim:

He does mention asking the ladies to feel the bathtub but there is also the mention of the gentle vibration in bed and just the general hum of the engines - as Beesley himself says, it's one of those things that you don't even really notice or think about until it suddenly stops, and then you really do pay attention to it.

Through my work, I spend a large part of my day in refrigerated cool stores, and on the odd occasion that they happen to malfunction or the maintenance people are working on them, the lack of their sound is incredibly noticeable - and yet if they had been running continuously all day, you probably wouldn't have given them a second thought. I imagine it'd be the same for Beesley with the engines on the Titanic - indeed, he said as much himself.

As to the rest of your post, it is an interesting theory and well thought out, though I wonder that the passengers only ever said that the ship was making headway again rather than any manouvres which would have seemed bizarre to them. Full astern or not, travelling at the speed she was, she would have cleared the fatal iceberg very quickly. She need only have gone a couple of hundred metres past it for it to probably be completely out of sight, and then if she sailed a little further approximately 5-10 minutes later, it would have put even more distance between the Titanic and the iceberg.

Whatever the surrounding circumstances, one thing seems clear: The engines were stopped, and then started again. And I think the only logical explanation is similar to what Jim is suggesting - that it was part of preparing to get underway again and/or some sort of test for seaworthiness. The full extent of the damage was only just being established at that point.

Cheers,
Adam.

 

[Aaron_2016]

There are a number of survivors who believed the ship went slow ahead after the collision and QM Olliver stated that the captain telegraphed "half-speed ahead". Is it true that this order was carried out and that she made some headway after the collision? Survivor Charlotte Collyer is reported as saying - "We noticed that the engines had ceased running. They tried to start the engines a few minutes later, but after some coughing and rumbling there was silence once more. Our cabin was so situated that we could follow this clearly."

Does this mean there was possibly an attempt to move the ship, but it was quickly stopped before she made any headway?


.

 

[David G. Brown]

Quartermaster Olliver had no reason to lie and lots of reasons to hide that Titanic did go ahead after the accident. He said "half speed," which seems a bit fast. However, if he were trying to protect his employer (White Star Line) Olliver would simply have said nothing.

As to reciprocating steam engines "coughing and rumbling," well I'm suspicious. Internal combustion engines do that sort of thing, but steam is different. It sort of chuckles as it works and at slow speeds steam marine steam engines produce very little vibration compared to internal combustion machinery. Methinks the lady was trying to be dramatic in her language.

I have no personal doubt that Titanic did move slowly away from the accident scene for a short period of time. There is evidence both in survivor testimonies and in messages and actions taken by the WSL office in New York that support the movement of the ship. And, there are those famous newspaper accounts about "all safe" and "heading for Halifax."
-- David G. Brown

 

[David G. Brown]

Just noticed something Jim wrote in another forum about quartermaster Olliver's testimony. It's a different take on the purpose for restarting the engines. It applies to this discussion as well. Here's what he wrote:

"QM Olliver: He saw 'Half Ahead' on the telegraph. That would have needed to have been the order for sufficient propeller wash to activate the rudder. N bridge parlance, it's called giving her "a kick ahead". It's all to do with steering and nothing to do with forward progress."

Jim knows I see things a bit differently, that the ship did steam off for a few minutes. However, his explanation for "half ahead" gives a reason for the order Olliver said he saw sent to the engine room. It is quite necessary to give a "kick ahead" to get rudder action if you vessel is stopped. Otherwise, there will be no result from changing the rudder position.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Samuel Halpern]

The bridge was blacked out, so it would be somewhat difficult to actually see the telegraph handle positions unless you were right next to the telegraph. For example, what do you think the J W Ray engine order telegraph below is signaling? When the handle is straight up it would be showing STOP. Moving forward (or aft), the positions were STANDBY, DEAD SLOW, SLOW, HALF, FULL.

If you said Half ahead you would be close, but wrong. It is actually showing Slow ahead.

 

[David G. Brown]

Regarding your telegraph illustration -- Well done, Sam.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Aaron_2016]

Would the Captain have said the orders when he pulled the telegraph lever so they could be noted down in the log book? Boxhall was asked if he knew what orders were on the telegraphs immediately after the collision. He answered: "Full speed astern, both." He had just come out of a lighted area and wasn't sure if he had seen the iceberg when he looked over the side. Was he able to read clearly what the telegraphs indicated? Did he perhaps hear the jingle and determined what the order was by the sound it made? Boxhall said he was doing his rounds that night and going about the ship. Would he use a torch as he walked along the boat deck, making sure everything was correct on deck? Could the officers shield their hand over the telegraph and briefly use a torch to see what they read?

.

 

[Jim Currie]

By the time QM Olliver saw that half ahead order on the telegraph, the dimmer switch would have been turned up or the oil lantern wick would have been raised or both. They were maneuvering the vessel using the engines they needed to see what they were doing. Near enough was most certainly not good enough.

Aaron. The practice at sea was to activate the telegraph handles hard over each way to make sure the signal bells were sounded loudly and of sufficient duration. This action would terminate with the telegraph tell-tale pointing to the desired order. For Half Ahead or any other order, they would give a full double ring. Tring..ing-ing-ing + Tring..ing..ing..ing.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

The real question here is what did Boxhall really see? If what he said were true then that makes Barrett's description of what took place in the stokehold moments before the collision very questionable, and vise versa. The engineers would not signal STOP to the stokeholds if the engine telegraphs signaled FULL Astern.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

By the way, here are the positions on the engine order telegraphs fitted on Olympic and Titanic.

and here is a photograph showing the telegraph in the ahead standby position:

 

[Ryan Burns]

The real question here is what did Boxhall really see? If what he said were true then that makes Barrett's description of what took place in the stokehold moments before the collision very questionable, and vise versa. The engineers would not signal STOP to the stokeholds if the engine telegraphs signaled FULL Astern.

Wouldn't full astern have caused quite a jolt to the passengers and crew? Also, it's my understanding that standard operating procedure when preparing for a collision was to put the engines to ALL STOP, so as to avoid any potential damage to the blades. Murdoch actually had the highest test scores of any of the bridge officers on the ship, so I bet he would be more likely than not to have stuck to his training and set the engines to ALL STOP.

Further, Barrett not only indicates that he saw the red light but never states that they started shoveling coal again. If the engines were FULL ASTERN they would have continued to shove coal.

 

[Jim Currie]

I am very, very familiar with the 'stations' on a bridge telegraph Sam.

I have told you this before, perhaps you have forgotten? When I was a lowly Cadet in training and sailing in ships with triple expansion steam engines and later as a bridge Officer in Anchor Line twin screw passenger vessels, I had two things dinned into me by my betters. One was that you never go from an ahead movement to an astern movement before first ringing STOP; no matter how briefly. The second was that you never give or repeat verbally the engine order BOTH. The reason for that was that the word 'BOTH" can sound very much like "PORT". when yelled from the outer end of the bridge. The correct order was ALL STOP.
Down in the engine room, the greasers would acknowledge the order by ringing their telegraph to match the bridge order. At the same time, they would order the boiler rooms to stop firing. Those in the boiler rooms would obey that order and at the same time close the dampers to reduce the heat/

As to what went on on the bridge of Titanic...think about it!

Murdoch reacted to the information given to him fortified by his eyesight...sees the iceberg right ahead with definite clear water to the left He orders hard left rudder. A few seconds later, he sees the bow begin to swing left. He knows it is touch and go. At the same moment he remembers that the stern will swing toward the danger as the ship turns. To avoid damage to his starboard prop, he rushes to the telegraph and rings down ALL STOP. He stops everything because he knows that if he does not, the effectiveness of the rudder will be compromised. He is still too close and the ship hits the ice...he activates the WT Door lever and then rings down FULL ASTERN together. The reason for the engine order was to bring the vessel to a halt as soon as possible. Almost immediately after, Captain Smith appears on the bridge and asks what s going on. He and Murdoch immediately goes out onto the bridge wings on each side to determine if the ship is slowing down. To do this, they would look down toward the water and look aft toward the stern. The water issuing from the engine room discharges and sanitary systems and the pattern of the propeller wash at the stern would be their guides.

Now fit the foregoing into Dillon's evidence.

 

[Ryan Burns]

Jim, this may be a dumb question, but I know nothing about steam engines. If the stokers had shut the dampers and then fled when the WT door alarm began to rang, would there still have been enough steam for the blades to start moving again?

Also, there would have been a big shock going from FULL AHEAD to FULL STOP, but going from ALL STOP to FULL ASTERN wouldn't have been any different than going from ALL STOP to FULL AHEAD as far as vibrating the ship, right?