Speed After Collision

[Samuel Halpern]

I am very, very familiar with the 'stations' on a bridge telegraph Sam.

I know you are, and I'm sure you could operate them with your eyes closed. I posted those diagrams for the benefit of those who may not be familiar with that particular telegraph.

According to Boxhall, Murdoch was already at the WTD switch when he enters the bridge, and the telegraphs were already showing full astern. He never says he heard the telegraphs ring a second time. Olliver also entered the bridge just as the ship struck. He also said that the only movement he witnessed was 1/2 ahead given by Capt. Smith.

Senator BURTON. Were the engines reversed; was she backed?
Mr. OLLIVER. Not whilst I was on the bridge; but whilst on the bridge she went ahead, after she struck; she went half speed ahead.

 

[Jim Currie]

No such thing as a 'Dumb' question, Ryan.

Before the moment, the coals are incandescent and giving off maximum heat When the damper is pushed in, it cuts off the draft to the fires. The result is that they quickly die down to a red glow. They are still giving off heat and that it still being transferred to the water in the boilers and converted to steam. With the dampers in, there would be more than enough being generated to satisfy a start-up demand from the engines and certainly plenty to supply the modest demands of all the pumps in the ship as well as the electricity generator engines. However, if there was a sudden demand for increased steam over the level being generated by the damped-down furnaces, then the dampers would need to be pulled out and the stoking process resumed.

When the STOP order came, the steam would be shut off from the engines, the firing stopped and the dampers pushed in. The effect on the ship would be hardly perceptible. A bit like taking your foot off the accelerator on the car.
Because the ship was turning hard left and because some of her forward momentum must have been effected by prolonged (6 seconds) contact with the ice, she would have been slowing down rapidly. As she was doing so and the propellers came to a halt, the dragging of these through the water would also contribute to the breaking action and she would have slowed down even more. The rudder would then have been useless.
The propellers would also have cause enormous but ever decreasing turbulence in the stern area. By the time the engineers had reversed the engines, the propellers would be falling into that turbulence. The result of that would have been a sort of bumping up and down sensation and a little shaking.

 

[Jim Currie]

Sam, QM Olliver was closely questioned about the ahead movement by Senator Burton. As I read it, the movement was ordered when the ship was almost stopped.
Olliver did not seem to know how long the engines were running ahead before the final STOP order was given. it also seems that the reason for this was because he had been sent to find the Carpenter. he found the man and he was already doing his duty. However, he did see the captain ring down STOP before he rang half a head. If he saw that then he could also see the tell-tale on the dial.
If the evidence of Dillon is accurate, then we know when Olliver was sent for the Carpenter... 5 minutes after impact, while the engines were running ahead.

 

[Ryan Burns]

Correct me if I'm wrong Jim, but in your opinion is this correct for Murdoch's actions during those first five minutes or so:

1. Hard a starboard
2. ALL STOP
*impact*
3. Hard a port
4. Close WT doors
5. FULL ASTERN
6. ALL STOP
7. then HALF or SLOW AHEAD

 

[Robert T. Paige]

I believe some illustrations show the engine telegraphs as being internally lighted ? Is this incorrect ?
I could be wrong in my observation.?
I am going by the old rule "The only dumb question is the one you don't ask."
Seriously, the real sailors and experts are what makes this website fascinating.
Thanks !!!!!

 

[Jim Currie]

No, Ryan. My timetable is as follows:

1. Hard a starboard.
2. All Stop.
3. Impact...close WT doors.
4. Full Astern together.
5. Stop.
6. Half ahead...hard a port.
7. Stop. helm midship.
8. Send for Carpenter.
9. Carpenter reports...
10. Call all hands.. calculate distress position and take to W/O.
11. Message to Engine Room.

 

[Jim Currie]

Yes Robert. It is also possible that there would be a variable rheostat fitted as a dimmer switch some where on the telegraph stand.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Quartermaster Rowe said he felt the engines going full speed astern and he had to quickly pull up the log line before it was sucked in by the propellers. Does anyone know if the ship was reversing during the actual collision and if he resumed the log after the ship went ahead again? QM Rowe said: "I had charge of the taffrail log......As soon as the berg was gone I looked at the log.....after the iceberg was cleared......I went on the (aft) bridge to find that out. The log was on the port side of the bridge."

Q - How long after the ship struck do you think it was you looked at this patent log? Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour?
A - About half a minute.

In this interview at 3:30 QM Rowe gives his account about the engines reversing and having to reel in the log at the stern.




.

 

[Jim Currie]

Hello Aaron. The engines would not have been set astern until the ship had passed the ice Just in case the prop blades made contact.

Rowe would not have pulled in the log line unless he knew for sure that the ship was going slow down and stop. He would not re-deploy the log line until ordered to do so by the bridge.

In fact, the Californian lost her log line when she got into the ice and went astern onto it. They were lucky, they just had to break-out a new line. Sometimes the line does not break and the whole lot - taffrail recorder and governor are lost.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Hello Aaron. The engines would not have been set astern until the ship had passed the ice Just in case the prop blades made contact.

Rowe would not have pulled in the log line unless he knew for sure that the ship was going slow down and stop. He would not re-deploy the log line until ordered to do so by the bridge.

In fact, the Californian lost her log line when she got into the ice and went astern onto it. They were lucky, they just had to break-out a new line. Sometimes the line does not break and the whole lot - taffrail recorder and governor are lost.

Many thanks. Rowe said "We read the log every two hours, and it is telephoned to the bridge and entered in the quartermaster's log book." Does this mean his timing of the collision as 11:40pm (from the TV interview) is from his own time keeping as he would probably have checked his watch as he waited for the next log reading. Would he phone the bridge after he read the log after the collision, or at midnight when it was due? In the above interview he said apart from the blowing off of steam he heard nothing. Was he implying perhaps that he rang the bridge but nobody answered? Perhaps on account of the noise of steam? I understand Captain Smith gave a handwritten note to QM Olliver to deliver to the engine room. There was a telephone I think that connected the bridge to the engine room. Was it too noisy perhaps to use the telephone and impossible to hear it ring? Makes me wonder if the lookouts were trying to telephone the bridge as well and there was no reply on account of the steam. Lookout Symons said: "I went to the telephone then, to try to ring up on the bridge and ask whether I was wanted in the nest, when I saw this. I could get no answer on the telephone". This could explain the conversation Major Peuchen had in the lifeboat. He said Fleet told him he rang the phone and did not get a reply from the bridge. Perhaps he was referring to the events after the collision when the steam was blowing and he simply wanted to know if he was wanted up in the crowsnest, because when lookout Symons relieved him at the watch and came up the nest, he tried to ring the bridge as well.....and Rowe makes three?

.

 

[Ryan Burns]

No, Ryan. My timetable is as follows:

1. Hard a starboard.
2. All Stop.
3. Impact...close WT doors.
4. Full Astern together.
5. Stop.
6. Half ahead...hard a port.
7. Stop. helm midship.
8. Send for Carpenter.
9. Carpenter reports...
10. Call all hands.. calculate distress position and take to W/O.
11. Message to Engine Room.

Your hard a port is in a weird spot. Is this a second hard a port after the one where he was trying to miss the berg?

 

[Jim Currie]

Your hard a port is in a weird spot. Is this a second hard a port after the one where he was trying to miss the berg?

That's because I do not believe that the hard-a-port order was part of the ice berg avoidance manoeuvre.

I have tried to imagine what was going on during the first 10 minutes after impact. This is how I see it.

When the helm was put over hard left, the ship's bow began turning to the left at an ever increasing speed. Then came contact. The engines slowed down rapidly as did the ship. All the while, she was curving away to the left and slowing down rapidly The engines began running astern. The forward motion fell to zero before the engines were turning astern at maximum revs. She may even have gained a little stern-way. The captain stopped the engines. When he thought the ship had stopped, he asked QM Hichens.."How's her head Quartermaster? Hichens replied: "South 88 West, sir". She was originally on a course of North 71 West but due to a combination of rudder and impact had swung 2 points (22.5 degrees) left and was then stopped with the iceberg astern.
At that moment, Captain Smith thought, like everyone else that the encounter with the ice had been minor and that his ship has suffered slight if any, damage. With this in mind he did two things. 1: He brought his ship's head back round to her original heading of North 71 West, ready to resume the passage to New York and 2: He sent standby Quartermaster Olliver to find the Carpenter and get him to sound round to make sure the ship was not leaking.
To bring her head back to the original course he ordered the engines Half a head and the helm hard a-port. The rudder would not have done it's job without the help of the propeller wash. The helm order would have been to Moody. It would have been something like : "Hard-a-port. Bring her head round to North 71 West. Let me know when her head is steady on that heading." About 8 minutes after impact, Titanic was stopped about half a mile south and west of the iceberg. At that time, those on board the ship would see it on the starboard quarter. Less that 2 minutes earlier, anyone looking aft would have seen the stern swinging away from the berg

 

[Ryan Burns]

So you're saying that Murdoch didn't port around the berg?

 

[Jim Currie]

That's exactly what I am saying, Ryan. It is also what Murdoch told Captain Smith. I quote:

"I was going to hard-a-port round it but she was too close. I could not do any more."

It cannot be plainer. The man had good intentions but as a man who was born near to Murdoch wrote:

" The best laid schemes o' Mice an' Men,
Gang aft agley,
An' lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!
(The best laid schemes of Mice and Men
oft go awry,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
For promised joy!)
Robert Burns, To a Mouse (Poem, November, 1785)"

 

[Samuel Halpern]

That's because I do not believe that the hard-a-port order was part of the ice berg avoidance manoeuvre.

Neither do I. However, I do believe it was to mitigate further damage along the starboard side as the iceberg was passing astern.