Survivors who spread lies?

[chrismireya]

Good points. However, I am not saying that Archibald Gracie is entirely reliable. Rather, I personally feel that he's the most reliable eyewitness (in terms of his testimony) to come out of Collapsible B. I probably should have worded this better. His account of the events seems better than most of the others who were in (well, on) the same boat. Then again, I suppose that the trauma and immense psychological strain of the last half-hour aboard Titanic and while in the water were enough to make surviving paramount. The events outside of each person's here-and-now during the struggle to survive is likely more of a blur.

I do appreciate his statements in the U.S. Senate Inquiry:

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Archibald Gracie (First Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

 

[Thomas Krom]

I do appreciate his statements in the U.S. Senate Inquiry:

The only wrong statement in his account is the identification of the fourth man in the smoking room, whom he identified as Arthur Ryerson. Likely based on the account of his wife he realized that it couldn't have been him since he was with his family the whole time (which his son confirmed too). The identification of the fourth man is an interesting topic for debate.

 

[Wolfric Rogers]

Fair, Gracie seems to be reliable for most part about the time before the final plunge and after the Titanic sank (other than meeting Lightoller and Thayer in the water).

 

[Arun Vajpey]

In fairness to all those who survived on Collapsibles A & B, they would have gone though such a traumatic experience that even the hardiest of thm would have found it difficult to recall everyting accurately afterwards. They would have remained on board the Titanic just before the break-up; most of them either jumped into the sea ahead of the wave or were washed overboard by it. And the diabetic Gracie was probably the physically most vulnerable of the lot and it is amazing that he actually managed to survive the ordeal and tell the tale.

 

[Thomas Krom]

In fairness to all those who survived on Collapsibles A & B, they would have gone though such a traumatic experience that even the hardiest of thm would have found it difficult to recall everyting accurately afterwards.

George Rheims even suffered from memory loss for a couple of months. Which is understandable after you read his letter (translated from French to English in the 1980s) to his wife and read what he saw. Poor man.

 

[chrismireya]

Fair, Gracie seems to be reliable for most part about the time before the final plunge and after the Titanic sank (other than meeting Lightoller and Thayer in the water).

I don't think that, in the Senate Inquiry, Gracie mentioned having met Lightoller and Thayer in the water. Please correct me if I missed this. From what I understand, his Senate testimony included having gone into the water, emerged from the water after unspecified frantic moments and then, after gathering his bearings, couldn't see the ship. Where the ship was supposed to be, it was gone. He only noticed bodies and wreckage all around him (along with the "horrible sounds of drowning people and people gasping for breath"). He first climbed upon some floating wooden object (perhaps a large crate) before making his way to the overturned boat.

In the Senate Inquiry, he seems to refer to things that Lightoller and Thayer told him -- but later. For instance, he mentions that Lightoller later told him that he had a similar concern with swimming away from the wreckage. However, he didn't mention Lightoller until they were both on the overturned boat -- and Lightoller told him what had happened. Gracie said that Jack Thayer, likewise, mentioned the funnel falling near him.

I've never read Gracie's posthumously published account (i.e., "The Truth About the Titanic"). However, I wonder how much of the published account is actually Col. Gracie's memory and how much is gathered from the recollections and testimony of others. From the sample on Amazon, it seems like Gracie, after writing his own recollection, included others' stories because of his "access to other sources of information" (page 74).

Also on Page 21 of the book sample: I think that his account of the sinking (potentially having been in one piece) is less conclusive than some make it out to be. He even mentions the testimonies of others and then compares it with his own experience. Essentially, he states that he didn't see any signs of major stress or breakup when he went into the water -- roughly when more than half of the upper decks were still out of the water. This seems to indicate that his struggle in the water may have taken nearly all of his concentration until he gained his bearings and noticed that the ship had already sank.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Good post Chrismireya. As I said above, Gracie was not the sort of man to concoct stories about the sinking but he did have a slight penchant for melodrama. What he must have done for his book was to collate his own recollections of the accident and sinking (the final moments would have been jumbled in anyone's memory) and what he could remember of statements made by others like Lightoller, Jack Thayer etc and present it in his own narrative style.

Also, Gracie probably felt survivor's guilt because his close friend Clinch Smith, who had worked with the Colonel in helping women and children into lifeboats, did not make it. They were part of the "Coterie" that Gracie often referred to and were together till the wave washed them overboard; Gracie somehow made it to the overturned Collapsible B but never saw Smith again.

 

[Wolfric Rogers]

I don't think that, in the Senate Inquiry, Gracie mentioned having met Lightoller and Thayer in the water. Please correct me if I missed this.

He very much seems to imply it in his inquiry account:
“Was Officer Lightoller on it (boat B)? Yes; Officer Lightoller was on that same boat. At that time? At that same time. Then I came up to the surface and was told by Lightoller what had occurred. One of the funnels fell from the steamer, and was falling toward him, but when it was going to strike him, young Mr. Thayer, who was also on the same boat, said that it splashed near him, within 15 yards, he said, and it splashed him toward this raft. We climbed on this raft.”

There are also a couple of accounts from April 19th mentioning this event. You just can't avoid Gracie's accounts, they were printed everywhere!

“Around me was wreckage, and I frantically grabbed at driftwood. Moans rent the air, women and children in the lifeboats being hysterical in their fear and sorrow. Occasionally a man struggled by me, and I think I discerned two or three women half floating on the waves, held up by an improvised life preserver of some sort. While in this helpless condition expecting every minute to be washed away from the wooded grating which supported me, I encountered J. B. Thayer Jr.”

“There was nothing in sight save ice, which dotted the ocean, and a large field of wreckage. There were dying men and women all about me. groaning and crying piteously. The second officer and J. B. Thayer, Jr., who were swimming near, told me that just before my head appeared above the water, one of the Titanic’s funnels separated and fell apart near me, scattering the bodies in the water. I saw wreckage everywhere. All that came within my reach I clung to. A great, crate-like block of wood floated within my grasp and I grabbed it. It seemed to be sufficiently large to keep me afloat. At this moment, however, I saw an overturned boat a short distance away arid swam to it. I caught the arm of a man who grasped It, threw my leg over the boat, and rested on it.”

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Moans rent the air, women and children in the lifeboats being hysterical in their fear and sorrow. There were dying men and women all about me. groaning and crying piteously.

That is what I meant by Gracie's somewhat melodramatic narrative style. Mind you, everything in those sentences above is very likely true, but it was his imaginative mind that guessed that those in the lifeboats were "hysterical with grief and sorrow". I know that people differ in their reading preferences, but for real-life events like the Titanic disaster, I like the documentary style "hard facts" presented in what I call "staggered chronological order" that On A Sea Of Glass is written. Gracie's style - and some other works like Titanic: An Illustrated History - was a bit too novelized for my tastes.

Books like Sam Halpern's ....A Centennial Reappraisal, Strangers On The Horizon, Prelude To An Allison etc are written in the same "hard facts" style presented without too many emotive remarks IMO create a real-life mental image so necessary IMO to put oneself in that position. I have just started on Brad Payne's "11:40..............." and it promises to follow the same style of presentation. Very interesting.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Lawrence Beesley's book also has many melodramatic moments. In the days without live video clips to convey what things were really like, the word choice written in an account was used to paint a picture to the reader so they can visualize what the author wants them to see. In some cases, the author tends to embellish things so that they themselves are presented in a role of greater importance or circumstance than actually warranted. Some accounts by a few famous people are notorious for being blatantly false.
There are not enough fingers or toes to count the number of people who claimed to have escaped into the very last lifeboat to leave the ship at the very last moment.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

In the days without live video clips to convey what things were really like, the word choice written in an account was used to paint a picture to the reader so they can visualize what the author wants them to see. In some cases, the author tends to embellish things so that they themselves are presented in a role of greater importance or circumstance than actually warranted.

Exactly. For me, that kind of biased approach completely spoils the picture for me.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

For me, that kind of biased approach completely spoils the picture for me.

For me, it questions what was real and what was not.

 

[chrismireya]

He very much seems to imply it in his inquiry account:
“Was Officer Lightoller on it (boat B)? Yes; Officer Lightoller was on that same boat. At that time? At that same time. Then I came up to the surface and was told by Lightoller what had occurred. One of the funnels fell from the steamer, and was falling toward him, but when it was going to strike him, young Mr. Thayer, who was also on the same boat, said that it splashed near him, within 15 yards, he said, and it splashed him toward this raft. We climbed on this raft.”

There are also a couple of accounts from April 19th mentioning this event. You just can't avoid Gracie's accounts, they were printed everywhere!

“Around me was wreckage, and I frantically grabbed at driftwood. Moans rent the air, women and children in the lifeboats being hysterical in their fear and sorrow. Occasionally a man struggled by me, and I think I discerned two or three women half floating on the waves, held up by an improvised life preserver of some sort. While in this helpless condition expecting every minute to be washed away from the wooded grating which supported me, I encountered J. B. Thayer Jr.”

“There was nothing in sight save ice, which dotted the ocean, and a large field of wreckage. There were dying men and women all about me. groaning and crying piteously. The second officer and J. B. Thayer, Jr., who were swimming near, told me that just before my head appeared above the water, one of the Titanic’s funnels separated and fell apart near me, scattering the bodies in the water. I saw wreckage everywhere. All that came within my reach I clung to. A great, crate-like block of wood floated within my grasp and I grabbed it. It seemed to be sufficiently large to keep me afloat. At this moment, however, I saw an overturned boat a short distance away arid swam to it. I caught the arm of a man who grasped It, threw my leg over the boat, and rested on it.”

I might be incorrect and I don't want to make this a matter of semantics, but I don't quite know if this is exactly what he's implying.

He previously stated in response to a question that "Officer Lightoller tells me..." which obviously implies that it wasn't in real-time (because he is pointing out that they were in different positions on Titanic's deck). So, he has been given information after-the-fact.

As for the collapsible and who met who in the water, I don't quite read that he met Thayer in the water. When he says that "we" climbed on this raft, I'm assuming that he's referring to the "15-20 on it." Here's a specific selection of the lines of questioning and Gracie's responses:

Senator SMITH.
Who fired that pistol?

Mr. GRACIE.
Lightoller. That is what he told me. He is the second officer.

Senator SMITH.
Are you sure it was not Murdoch?

Mr. GRACIE.
I am sure it was not Murdoch.

Senator SMITH.
Or Lowe?

Mr. GRACIE.
I am sure it was not. That is what Mr. Lightoller himself told me. I did not hear the pistol. That is what I was told by Lightoller himself. That is all hearsay, Senator.

....

Senator SMITH.
How long after this did the boat go down?

Mr. GRACIE.
Soon after that the water came up on the boat deck. We saw it and heard it. I had not noticed in the meantime that we were gradually sinking. I was engaged all the time in working, as I say, at those davits, trying to work on the falls to let this boat down.

Mr. Smith and myself thought then that there was no more chance for us there, there were so many people at that particular point, so we decided to go toward the stern, still on the starboard side, and as we were going toward the stern, to our surprise and consternation, up came from the decks below a mass of humanity, men and women - and we had thought that all the women were already loaded into the boats.

The water was then right by us, and we tried to jump, Mr. Smith and myself did. We were in a sort of cul-de-sac which was formed by the cabin and the bridge, the structure that is right on the boat deck. We were right in this cul-de-sac. I have a diagram here which may explain the position better.

The top of the page is the bow (indicating on diagram), and on the right, or on the starboard side, is where this last boat that I speak of was, where the first officer, Murdoch, was at work trying to launch the boat. I would like to point out to you there my position with Mr. Smith. I will put a star there on the diagram and then you can see it better (marking on diagram).

It was where that star is, where I put that cross. That is the port side and this is the starboard side, and this is the structure that was on the boat deck, and this is the top of the hurricane deck or the bridge deck, where the funnels came down to the top and where I was right where that cross is (indicating on diagram).

Senator SMITH.
What occurred there?

Mr. GRACIE.
Mr. Smith jumped to try to reach the deck. I jumped also. We were unsuccessful. Then the wave came and struck us, the water came and struck us, and then I rose as I would rise in bathing in the surf, and I gave a jump with the water, which took me right on the hurricane deck, and around that was an iron railing, and I grabbed that iron railing and held tight to it; and I looked around, and the same wave which saved me engulfed everybody around me. I turned to the right and to the left and looked.

Mr. Smith was not there, and I could not see any of this vast mass of humanity. They had all disappeared.

Officer Lightoller tells me that at the same time he was on the bridge deck, where I have marked it "L", and that the first officer, Murdoch, was about 15 feet away, where you see that boat near the davits there. That boat, I understand, was thrown overboard.

....

Senator SMITH.
Did it have any bad effect on you?

Mr. GRACIE.
No, not then, but afterwards, on the raft. I was on the raft, which I will speak of, all night; and I did not notice how cold the water was until I got on the raft. There was a sort of gulp, as if something had occurred, behind me, and I suppose that was where the water was closing up, where the ship had gone down; but the surface of the water was perfectly still, and there were, I say, this wreckage, and these bodies, and there were the horrible sounds of drowning people and people gasping for breath.

While collecting the wreckage together I got on a big wooden crate, some sort of wooden crate, or wood of that sort.

I saw an upturned boat, and I struck out for that boat, and there I saw what I supposed were members of the crew on this upset boat. I grabbed the arm of one of them and pulled myself up on this boat.

....


Senator SMITH.
How many were on it?

Mr. GRACIE.
I suppose there must have been between 15 and 20.

Senator SMITH.
Was Officer Lightoller on it?

Mr. GRACIE.
Yes; Officer Lightoller was on that same boat.

Senator SMITH.
At that time?

Mr. GRACIE.
At that same time. Then I came up to the surface and was told by Lightoller what had occurred. One of the funnels fell from the steamer, and was falling toward him, but when it was going to strike him, young Mr. Thayer, who was also on the same boat, said that it splashed near him, within 15 yards, he said, and it splashed him toward this raft. We climbed on this raft. There was one man who was in front, with an oar, and another man in the stern with what I think was a piece of a board, propelling the boat along. Then we loaded the raft, as we now call it, with as many as it would contain, until she became under water, until we could take no more, because the water was up to our waists.

Senator SMITH.
Just one moment. That was while you were on the bottom of the overturned boat?

Mr. GRACIE.
Of the overturned boat; yes, sir.

TIP | United States Senate Inquiry | Day 11 | Testimony of Archibald Gracie (First Class Passenger, SS Titanic)

Electronic - Fully Searchable - transcripts of the complete U.S. Senate and British Board of Trade inquiries, and reports, into the sinking of the S.S. 'Titanic.'

www.titanicinquiry.org

So, when I read Gracie testify that he "came up to the surface," I am assuming that this is when he left off of "some sort of wooden crate, or wood of that sort" into the water and subsequently climbed upon the "same boat" (i.e., Collapsible B). This is where Lightoller told him what had occurred and, also, Mr. Thayer.

Even the portion that you posted about them being "near" where he was under water didn't seem to indicate that they met up in the water but, rather, they were near him when they went into the water. They subsequently informed Gracie about the funnel that had collapsed. I'm under the impression that this conversation happened aboard Collapsible B.

As such, I don't see these as any sort of exaggeration but an account that did include his experiences and presented with a bit of what Mr. Arun Vajpey calls Gracie's "particular narrative style."

Either way, I think that Gracie's testimony at the Senate Inquiry is relatively sound when compared to the ever-changing accounts of some of the others on Collapsible B.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Even the portion that you posted about them being "near" where he was under water didn't seem to indicate that they met up in the water but, rather, they were near him when they went into the water. They subsequently informed Gracie about the funnel that had collapsed. I'm under the impression that this conversation happened aboard Collapsible B.

That entire post and the conclusive excerpt above is very well analyzed and I agree with it. Let us put ourselves for a moment in the positions of the likes of Colonel Gracie, Lightoller, Jack Thayer, George Rheims etc - specifically those survivors who made it to either Collapsible B or A and lived.

All those people were on board the sinking Titanic till its last intact moments, amidst the chaos in the dark and freezing cold. All of them either jumped into the water just ahead of the 'wave' caused by that sudden downward plunge of the ship or were washed overboard by it. Even if it was for a short time of only 7 or 8 minutes, they were struggling in the icy cold water with a broken (although many of them did not realize it at the time) sinking ship nearby and several hundred screaming people all around them in the freezing conditions. At that stage, none of them would have known if he or she was going to survive and the last thing that Gracie, Lightoller, Jack Thayer or anyone else would have felt inclined to do would have been to tell others about the falling funnel or anything similar, even of they managed to recognize one another in the darkness under those hellish conditions - which I seriously doubt.

Even after calmbering onto the overturned Collapsible B, Thayer, Gracie, Lightoller, Bride etc, dripping wet and shivering, would have been more concerned with balancing properly on their precarious makeshift raft without sliding back into the water as more and more other survivors did the same. Even at that stage they would have been uncertain of their rescue because Lightoller and Bride apart, no one would have had any idea if another ship was going to arrive in time to save them. So, it would have been some time before they got the physical and mental energy to take stock of their situation and talk to each other about events that had happened.

I therefore feel that whatever survivors on top of Collapsible B told each other, it would have been at least an hour after the sinking or later, maybe some of it even on board the Carpathia. But it would have been such a traumatic experience for all concerned that recalling events or conversations clearly afterwards, even at the American Inquiry that started less than a week later, would have been very difficult.

 

[RonJF2]

There were probably quite a few and most of those we'll never know about. Considering that many fake survivors like Helen Kramer, Vera Hanson, Walter Belford etc tried to get into the act, still living genuine survivors could perhaps be forgiven for embellishments and even fabrications. We have to look at the 1950s and 1960s from their perspective; they were being interviewed 40 years or more after the disaster with two World Wars and great depression interposing and perhaps thought that they could get away with a yarn or two. More importantly, they would never have guessed that even further down the line people like us would have not only continued interest in the Titanic disaster, but have tools like the internet, social media etc to research deeply into an event that took place over a hundred years ago.


She was 7 years old at the time she was on the Titanic and so I guess we can give her some latitude.

Arun you know I'm a big fan of yours but Eva Hart lied about many things. George Behe and Don Lynch knew this and have told many stories about her making up things that are completely not true. Her mom never sat up during the day, she wasn't afraid of the Titanic, and she also fabricated a story about a passenger and steward having an affair. IMO she wanted to stay in the Titanic spotlight and always tried to one up the other older Titanic survivors. Her dislike for Milivina Dean is also very telling and unfortunate.