The Last of the Last How Masabumi Hosono's Night was forgotten

[monica e. hall]

Hello Inger,
hope the baggage catches up with you. In my experience something will be missing, but I understand it is transported in containers now, so maybe your books and papers will be intact. Here's hoping. Yes, it's interesting, isn't it? There must be quite a few relatives of 3rd class Titanic survivors in the USA who came from the Middle East, eastern Europe and Asia - all of whom must be American citizens who speak English fluently and are probably impeccably middle-class now. And yet, they seem hard to find. They must have stories to tell. Or maybe their grandparents simply didn't tell the story -maybe their lives were hard enough after they landed that family folklore was more concerned with learning the language, finding somewhere to live, getting a job etc.?

 

[Jan C. Nielsen]

It’s amazing how my posts have such a “coat-tail” effect. Well, Phil Hind, so I’m “intolerant,” and “angry.” C’mon, are you blind? Look at the rest of these guys. Gowan says I’m “stupid,” and calls me “cutie.” Others tell me I’m “ignorant,” or worse. You tell me, Phil Hind, who really is “angry” and “intolerant”? Your Titanica clique, or me?

In any event, I fully stand by my position here. Racism may not be excused on the basis that it happened in a different time frame. The people who were the victims of racism didn’t like it then, and don’t like it today.

Further, racism still exists today, and flourishes in England and the United States. I don’t buy into the board members’ self-serving view that racism or racial bias doesn’t exist here, on this board, or in our perspective on the Titanic disaster.

This is exactly the point that the author of the article tried to dispel, which all our distinguished members seem to have ignored. She says, "then and now":

But as on the Carpathia in April 1912, so in the years that followed the disaster, no Westerner had much interest in the lone Japanese. Hosono’s story, written as a private letter and not for public consumption, vividly illustrates how human reactions to a tragedy resemble each other across cultures and races. Nevertheless, Western perceptions of the Japanese still focus on that which separates “them” from “us.” Masabumi Hosono’s version of the night may not shed new light on the events in the mid-Atlantic in April 1912. His fate, however, and that of his story say a great deal about Western attitudes toward Japan then and now.

I’m beginning to think that Stephen Biel had the right idea. You know, some of this Board membership, and a few of the comments made above, altogether remind me of the Titanic, which sits on the bottom of the Atlantic, still a mystery, and quickly disintegrating. Pretty soon, hopefully, there won’t be any Titanic left. Likewise, the people who coat-tail my posts will fudge around with their personal attacks, acting like "cuties" themselves, whenever someone takes a position contrary to their own, not truly understanding anything about the Titanic disaster, and just re-interpreting and reinforcing their own narrow perspectives, until, within a short time, they will wake up and have found that there is nothing left there on the Atlantic's bottom, to understand.

 

[Inger Sheil]

It’s amazing how my posts have such a “coat-tail” effect.

I suppose on one level it is remarkable how so many people, of such diverse ages, cultures, political beliefs and historiographical approaches can be unified in one thing - seeing through your smokescreen of polemical rhetoric and intellectual conceits. But then, given your blatant biases, I guess that's not overly remarkable at all.

Well, Phil Hind, so I’m “intolerant,” and “angry.” C’mon, are you blind? Look at the rest of these guys. Gowan says I’m “stupid,” and calls me “cutie.”

I think someone who doesn't realise that ISP's can be traced and then tries to bluff his way out by pretended ignorance on the 'Cutie' reference can very aptly described as 'stupid'.

Others tell me I’m “ignorant,” or worse. You tell me, Phil Hind, who really is “angry” and “intolerant”? Your Titanica clique, or me?

Well, I'm the one that called you 'ignorant', and in the context of my statement I stick by it. This is what I wrote:

"once more demonstrates his ignorance of the diversity of the socio/cultural/political spectrum that makes up this board."

You kicked off with a declaration that this board would not be 'sympathetic' to the articles perspective on Hosono, because - as you characterised it without exception - it was composed of a "conservative, fundamentalist board membership."

THAT is ignorance - or a deliberate decision to misrepresent the composition of this board. I've travelled the world and met many members of this board in person, and have found them to represent a great variety of political, cultural, religious and social viewpoints. To attempt to anticipate their response (and incorrectly anticipate it, by the way) based on your own biases demonstrated ignorance and/or blinkered bigotry.

In any event, I fully stand by my position here. Racism may not be excused on the basis that it happened in a different time frame.

To state that historians or researchers are attempting to 'excuse' racism by placing historical attitudes in the context of their time demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of how historical studies work. Understanding how individuals acted according to their own set of cultural/religious/political prejudices and preconceptions is an essential part of understanding how and why people act as they do, whether one is an historian or an anthropologist. This does *not* involve condoning such attitudes - and it is a basic misunderstanding to suggest that it does.

As I've said before, how comfortable will we be with having our set of beliefs, customs, attitudes, political stances and understanding of cultural, race or gender issues judged by the beliefs and interpretations of individuals 90 years from now?

I’m beginning to think that Stephen Biel had the right idea.

Lol! I guess you're over the personal offense at you took at his writing that lead to one of the board's most unintentionally hilarious threads - 'Titanic Giant Killers'.

the people who coat-tail my posts will fudge around with their personal attacks

I'm amused that critical response to a contentious post, pointing out specifically the provocative statements and assumptions on your part, is now characterised as 'coat-tailing'. While it might be preferable from your point of view to be able to make unchallenged ex cathedra pronouncements comprised of gross generalisations about the abilities, characters and even the socio-political orientation of the people who make up this board, I think you'll find that you won't lack challengers among the ranks of folks who come from a very broad range of belief, experience, age, race and culture.

 

[monica e. hall]

Speaking of ingnorance, I have no idea what a 'cutie' is... one impression I do get, though, flitting on and off this Board, is how many US attorneys there are, and how very assertive they are. Jan, Tom etc. I suppose the assertiveness comes with the territory. You have to be a fighter to put backbone into vacillating clients, sway juries etc., and I don't mind being cross-examined on messageboards. The ego is a different matter though. The 'coat-tailing' remark, Jan, was definitely a mistake, and a very funny one. Visions of you, the cerebral freedon-fighter striding out ahead, with the dim and prejudiced saddo's scrabbling behind. And your assertion that 'racism may not be excused because it happened in a different timeframe' is non-sensical. Only people can be excused or forgiven, not events, so refusing to excuse dead people is simply daft. I suppose you mean that we should learn from historical injustices, and amen to that. But I am very wary of idealists who accuse others of racism - they are so often found wanting themselves, and end up having an effect exactly opposite to the desired one. Here in the UK there is an upsurge in English patriotism, which the Gov and media find alarming. This is after decades of the English being made to feel they should apologise for various events in history and being accused of racism by the Welsh, Scots, Indians, Africans etc.; the slave trade (ably abetted by African chiefs who sold their subjects to the equally culpable Arab traders who brought them to the coast; the Empire (though much of it was won by the Scots; the oppression of the Scots and Welsh by monarchs (though they haven't been English since Before Henry VII in the 15th century)...I could go on but I won't. Hardly suprising there might be a backlash by the fed-up, fuelled by the fact that the Scots and Welsh get their own Parliaments but the English don't. You're rich and secure, you can afford to claim the high moral ground. Poorer or more insecure people can't, and what happened to Hosono in his own country is far more illuminating than deriding a bunch of 2nd class passengers on a ship who'd never even seen a Japanese before, in all probability, and did what people have always done in the face of the unfamiliar. Ignored him. Now, the failure of Titanic archives to properly represent the histories of non-white passengers, if indeed it does, is something we can act upon (as Margaret has) and if we failed to do that, yes, it might be inexcusable in research terms .... but would it necessarily be racism?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>It’s amazing how my posts have such a “coat-tail” effect. Well, Phil Hind, so I’m “intolerant,” and “angry.” C’mon, are you blind? Look at the rest of these guys. Gowan says I’m “stupid,” and calls me “cutie.” Others tell me I’m “ignorant,” or worse. You tell me, Phil Hind, who really is “angry” and “intolerant”? Your Titanica clique, or me?<<

You are, Jan. I hate to be the one to mention this, but so far, the only one who's trying to make an issue of the race thing or look for reasons to be offended is you. Frankly, I never enquired as to the racial or cultural background of anyone here, nor do I give the south end of northbound rat about it. I do care a great deal about what people bring to the board in matters of knowledge, and insights into history. In short, it's what they do with the gray matter between their ears that counts in my book.

The rest is irrelevant nonsense.

>>Racism may not be excused on the basis that it happened in a different time frame. The people who were the victims of racism didn’t like it then, and don’t like it today.<<

And yet they seem to have done it to each other with quite a bit of enthusiasm, haven't they? I don't recall saying it was excusable. What I did say was;

Jeremy, I'm not sure it would have occured to them to give it a lot of thought. Quite a few of the attitudes extant at the time would certainly be offensive by our standards, but back then, these attitudes were accepted as "The way things are." They knew nothing of future sensibilities, had no way of knowing and would have cared less.

Now, where did I say it was excusable? And when you get right down to it, who...back then...would have cared anyway? They knew nothing of future judgements and to intject our own moral judgements on people of a bygone age is simply anachronistic.

You cannot change what happened Jan. As Popeye might say, "They wuz what they wuz, right or wrong." The most you can hope to do is understand it.

And on matters of ad hominum attack, Jan...who was it that tried to paint this entire boards membership with so broad a brush when he said;

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll find many white guys or women sympathetic to your perspective on Hosono, among this conservative, fundamentalist board membership.

because it sure as hell wasn't me.

When you start out with such a sweeping condemnation, you hardly have cause to take offence when the people you attack speak up in their own defence.

 

[Phillip Gowan]

Monica,
Your above post hits several marks right on-thanks. It is remarkable that despite our differences in culture and location, etc, most of us seem to have basic agreements in perspective on subjects such as racism.

Re: "Cutie"--someone started posting threads and responses under that name some months ago that were always contentious, always puerile, with the quality of a naughty little child that runs a safe distance from an adversary and then turns and sticks his tongue out yelling na na na Nah na! Those posts added nothing to the sphere of Titanic knowledge and interest but were intended to provoke and upset the cookie jar so to speak. I for one really believed that it was either Nathan Casteel (now banished from ET) or a contemporary of his in the 10-15 year old age group, judging from the juvenile ideas put forth and the juvenile manner of the presentation--not to mention hiding behind a juvenile pseudonym). (I should also make a disclaimer that most 10-15 year olds on this forum show an enormous amount of knowledge and maturity NOT evident in the posts by "Cutie"--proving that puerility reveals itself by intellect and personality, not by age). Looking back, it is significant that "Cutie" seemed to show up on Encyclopedia Titanica shortly after Jan Neilsen went into an inappropriate (to this forum) anti-George Bush tirade some months ago, and upon having his thread discontinued or removed and being the recipient of a good amount of chastisement over it, he subsequently disappeared from the forum for a long period of time (except of course, in posts under the name of "Cutie"). Now, tracing his ISP has shown him to actually be "Cutie" and lo and behold!--at the end of that rainbow we find, not a naughty little boy--but a naughty big boy! As Inger said, ISPs are magical things!

Regards
Phil

 

[monica e. hall]

Re 'Cutie'. Ah! Now I see. Thanks, Phil. Gotta say - all sounds fairly strange. I have to say too, that to accuse of racism people who are empathetic enough to interest themselves in a human tragedy over 90 years old, embracing all sorts of human conditions, races, religions and aspirations....well, it seems unlikely, doesn't it?

 

[Susan Leighton]

.....this sounds VERY familiar.


Posted on Friday, 25 April, 2003 - 3:22 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People of many different races and religions were aboard Titanic, yet all you get here is "Nearer My God To Thee," stories about Caucasian people being the heroes, and a priest bravely praying on deck. From what I can glean, very few people from minority religions or races participate in ET's discussions. They don't because that time in history was painful for African Americans, Jews, Asians, and others. It's sort of analogous to people who attend a ball, dance, or celebration commemorating the Confederacy of the United States, or who endorse Confederate-like state flags. Re-telling the past is one thing, worshiping and reliving it is another. Frankly, in my opinion, given the stereotypical people who like this stuff, ET might reasonably be characterized as a "whites only" lunch counter. This site really needs an overhaul, and some fresh, and different, faces.

Cutie
XOXOXO

 

[Michael Cundiff]

...Lord knows we have had heated debates/arguments in regards to salvage (TIME AND AGAIN)...

...but shucks we are not taking it to heart...

...just to the bottom of the North Atlantic Ocean. ;-)

Michael A. Cundiff
USA

 

[monica e. hall]

Susan,
I'm uncertain whether you think I'm on your side or not from your post. In my view, yes - to we need every aspect we can get. No - to complaining that this forum that beget so much discussion, and is prepared to take it further, is to blame for a white caucasian viewpoint? Given that it started out an English-speaking Board, can't it develop? Cut it a break.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

I think Susan was referring to the content of "Cutie's" post so at the very least, we would know the history of what's been discussed here so far...

Which unfortunately no longer has much to do with the content and substance of Margeret's excellant article.

As a member, I find Jan's comments and sweeping generalizations aimed at the forum's membership offensive and so it would appear does everyone who's posted so far. Obviously, Jan has a very different viewpoint, and he's as much entitled to his opinion as the rest of us. With that out of the way, I'm going to put on my moderators hat and call on everyone to return to the stated subject of this thread and discuss the article itself.

If anyone wants to grind any personal axes further or discuss current day racial/social/political issues, please be so kind as to take it off-list. I'd hate to close down this thread, but I will if I have to. I will not tolerate any flamewars. Not in my folder, and not on my watch!

The subject of this thread is "The Last of the Last" .

Let's get back to that.

 

[Inger Sheil]

The ego is a different matter though. The 'coat-tailing' remark, Jan, was definitely a mistake, and a very funny one. Visions of you, the cerebral freedon-fighter striding out ahead, with the dim and prejudiced saddo's scrabbling behind.

Nailed it right there, Monica! It's one of the most gorgeous bits of self-aggrandisement this board has seen in an age - Jan's heroic self-mythologising (and commensurate denigration of the bulk of the board as intellectual plebs, doomed to tail his comet of brilliance) is one that will live long in the annals of humour on this board.

Susan has correctly identified the 'Cutie' post - I won't belabour the irony of a previous member coming back under a pseudonym to declare a need for 'fresh and different faces.'

But to refocus the discussion on the original article, I find Monica's point about Hosono's treatment in his own culture quite fascinating. I was first exposed to Hosono's story in the aftermath of the Cameron movie, and coverage of this passenger's subsequent experiences in his homeland touched off interesting areas of speculation. His plight seemed comparable in some ways to the stigma suffered by some male caucasion survivors who found that they had to justify their own continued existance in the face of hostility and criticsm from some quarters. Additional cultural expectations, however, seem to have intensified his sufferings.

Based on 'coverage' of survivors and victims, one could - if so inclined - make an argument that historical focus has been dictated as much by socio/economic factors as religious or racial issues. There are whole swags of crewmen from the blackgang about whom, although British, male and CofE, virtually nothing is known beyond the information - sketchy and sometimes innacurate - contained in the crew agreements. It is only in recent years that much has been discovered on the poorer European immigrants.

I doubt this has much to do with a socio-economic bias (although perhaps the fact that these people are less 'glamourous' than their wealthier contemporaries has a bearing on it) and much to do with accessibility of data. Most of the world's population leads comparatively obscure lives, even in wealthier nations such as the USA and Britain. It was those that either recorded their stories at the time, who came forward later (e.g. with ANTR) or whose familes retained information and were later approached or came forward who have been able to relate the tales of 'ordinary' people. Language barriers, and indubitably the prejudices of newspaper men in 1912, meant that many stories from those of non-English Speaking Backgrounds were not recorded. Later, many victims simply did not want to talk about it. So researchers now face several obstacles in accessing these stories - genealogical data is comparatively easy to obtain from Britain, America and Australia, and work is being done in France and other European nations, but it is difficult and expensive to conduct this research when one does not know the language and is geographically removed from the archives. The same applies to other sources, such as family documents in the countries of origin etc.

It seems to be changing, though, as Margaret's work indicates. Those sources for individuals from a non-English speaking nation that are accessible in the USA - both official and private - are being located by researchers such as Phil G and Brian Meister who are breaking down the barriers. Outside of Britain and the USA, local researchers are finding sources - people like Kalman, Senan and others. Better worldwide communications (and low-cost airlines!) are making a difference.

Who knows - some day we may even learn from a researcher based in Hong Kong or mainland China, or even an ingenious foreign researcher, about the full story and final fate was of the Chinese sailors who took passage on the Titanic. I, for one, will be as keen to hear their stories as those of any other person on board.

 

[Susan Leighton]

I just cut and pasted a post that "Cutie" made in April to substantiate the claim of who "Cutie" really is. I certainly don't agree with what he/she said.

I found the article by Margaret Mehl to be well-written and insightful.

 

[monica e. hall]

Sorry Susan
it's because I didn't know any of the 'Cutie' history that I got confused. Now gone to the thread and see what you meant. I certainly do! Thanks for the explanation, will try not to be so stupid in future.
Monica

 

[Deborah Russes]

I don't really understand what is going on here but I am interested in Margaret's article. Could someone please tell me where to find it? I'm not at all sure how to negotiate my way around to earlier posts in this thread. I tried clicking "previous" at the top right but that wasn't the right place. Thanks.