Oh dear!
Poor old Herbert Stone. He hasn't a clue what he is seeing or from what bearing, as The Californian swings round that night. Except he tells Gibson to report to Captain Lord at 2.05am 8 white rockets seen, and according to Gibson that this other ship has now disappeared.
He misses the first rocket he sees, just seeing a flash in the sky, and he probably missed the first rocket fired from Titanic because at the time he was on the speaking tube to Captain Lord when Captain Lord whistled up.
Then later on both Stone and Gibson together observe 3 further white rockets, none of which, according to Gibson, went low, and Gibson never saw the stern light of the ship being observed. Gibson's evidence of this other ship bearing so many points and altering these points from The Californian is entirely consistent with The Californian swinging around; only Stone claimed he took compass bearings of these observations.
If nothing was written down at the time in the scrap log, I have suggested some time ago that Stone's recollection of these compass bearings would be very unreliable and inaccurate. This is proved to be the case later on with the rockets seen from the Carpathia and their direction/bearing as seen by compass by Stone. And again Stone misses the first rocket (as described by Gibson) sent up from the Carpathia, and only describes 3 flashes just on the horizon (the first of which he didn't see!), whereas Gibson describes seeing 3 white rockets, and Gibson's description of the bearing of these rockets by points of the ship actually matches where The Californian was swinging round at the time. Stone, however, is wildly out on his 'compass' bearings.
It is generally accepted that Stone was not as observant as Gibson, which is a bit of a killer for the 2nd Officer in charge of that Middle Watch!
Stone had a rotten subsequent career in the British Merchant Navy that ended with a mental breakdown, of which substantial evidence has been provided on this forum by Harland.
You also have only to read Stone's testimony to the British Inquiry that he was also a rotten witness. There is also evidence that Captain Lord tried to suggest in Boston to the newspapers in interviews that Stewart was the officer during the Middle Watch, so avoiding Stone as a witness, and instead the more pliable and 'reliable' Stewart.
I have no doubt whatsoever that there were heated exchanges between Captain Lord and Stone later the morning of 15th April 1912, (and there is some evidence of these conversations whether heated or not), and earlier Stone was sent up into the crows nest in the freezing cold having been sleep deprived and woken up after only a few hours sleep, whereas Groves would have perhaps been the ideal candidate for this crows nest duty.
We also have the evidence from Brian Mainwaring in a letter to Walter Lord of 29th March 1956...
"I met Stone on one occasion during World War 1. It was a well known fact and quoted by him to his friends that Captain Lord of the 'California' [sic] was an insufferable S.O.B. That after Stone tried to get him to come up on the bridge he turned to the apprentice and said 'Well, let the bastard sleep.' "
(It should be noted that Stone was still alive at the time of the above letter to Walter Lord, and suddenly died 3 and a half years later).
Stones' eldest son John eventually met up with Leslie Reade and subsequently provided a letter that his mother, now Stone's widow (still alive but not interviewed by Reade) was sure that his father told her that he had seen distress rockets fired that night.
Cheers,
Julian
I will answer the above post once again. This time in the simplest of terms.
Stone's rocket story
(1)..Stone did not know what he was seeing because he did not recognise what he was seeing as anything he had ever seen before and that included distress rockets.
As would any normal individual, he dredged his memory for things he knew about and had not yet seen or had seen e.g. he had previously to learn about distress rockets but had never seen any, However, "shooting stars were as common as muck at sea.
He knew that if a ship fired a conventional distress rocket, it would, as Lightoller said, rise many hundreds of feet into the air before bursting in a shower of stars "of any colour" and giving off an ear-splitting BANG. The first "light" in the sky only met a single criteria...a flash, there was no following BANG nor was there the tell-tale lingering shower of stars of any colour to be seen for many seconds thereafter.
If as you say, he missed the first rocket while talking to Lord, that will not fly because
A: The call was about the nearby vessel regarding her situation and Stone would glance in her direction as he talked on the blower.
B: The call time was noted by Stone to be at 00-35 am He did not see his first "flash" for another 10 minutes.
The ability of Stones Interrogators and by extension, anyone's ability to determine the veracity of Stone's rocket evidence
(2)..What I find odd is that we have three men questioning a relative expert about rockets who themselves, unable to determine whether the witness is telling the truth or otherwise. Consider the following little exchange:
"The Commissioner: Would there be any significance in the lights if they were coloured as distinct from white, Mr. Aspinall?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: As I understand it, white lights are distress signals; company's lights are very often coloured.
The Commissioner: Would distress signals be coloured?
Mr. Butler Aspinall: I have not got the exact wording of the regulation in my mind.
The Attorney-General: I do not think there is anything about that in the regulations."
These three had the fate of that young man in their hands. Sad to say, how they viewed him based on his answers to questions concerning rockets prevails to this day.
Gibson's description of what he saw vis a vis rockets
(3)..As far as I can determine, Gibson did not describe the height of the rockets at all, To do so he would have required at least one reference point.
In fact, if you read his evidence carefully, you will discover that Gibson very clearly stated "The Second Officer was taking bearings of her all the time".
This tells us that in fact, Stone was obeying Lord's orders to the letter. I remind you that these were according to Stone " watch the other steamer and report if she came any nearer" and according to Lord " I told him to watch that steamer - that she was stopped...If she altered her bearings or got any closer to us - drifted towards us."
(4)..Gibson's stern light evidence
The fact that Gibson did not see the stern light of the vessel moving away is not an earth-shattering game-changer as you might imagine. In practice, it is often impossible to make a out a stern light. The reason for that being that invariably the stern light is mounted on the stern rail, on top of the ensign pole or on top of a low accommodation housing on the poop. This means that if the accommodation or alleyway lights in line with it are lit, it will merge in with these lights. A classic example of this was the Californian herself. Have a look at the row of portholes across the aft end of her accommodation and the bulkhead lights on either side of the Poop House. Now imagine what these would look like 8 or 9 miles away.
However, Stone did see the other vessel's stern light and told his questioners so.
Matters concerning Scrap Log entries
(5)..The fact that a vessel was stopped nearby would not be recorded in the Scrap Log, consequently, the bearing of such a vessel would not be recorded.
Bearings to Stone and every other Navigating officer were and still are meat and drink. They lived and still live, their daily lives by them. It is absurd to suggest that the Navigating Officer (Such was Stone) of any ship would not recall a bearing he had been constantly checking for 2 hours. It is laughable to suggest that a bridge officer would be confused regarding a bearing due to the fact that the ship was swinging. He would remember such a bearing because the maintenance of that bearing, regardless of how Californian was swinging was the only way he would be able know if the nearby vessel was keeping her position relative to that of the Californian. It follows that he would need to be sure of it in order to obey the instructions of Captain Lord.
Stone's ability as an observer
(6)...Who "Generally" accepts this, Julian?
Stone's subsequent career
(7)...Stone, like very many millions, survived the horrors of WW1. Many, like my wife's father, did so and thereafter went on to have a stable ,productive life. Many did not. Perhaps Stone was one of the latter?
What I can tell you without fear of contradiction is, that any normal man who is confronted by extreme danger on a daily basis for a number of years is not mentally the same, normal man he was when he started out to confront that danger.
What the foregoing has to do with what he saw that night, I will never know,
Proposed reason for evaluating Stone as a Witness
(8)...Would that be because those questioning him had decided upon a set of answers they required? Perhaps that's why Lord Mersey told Stone:
"You know, you do not make a good impression upon me at present."
The Boston Newspaper reports.
(10)...No, Julian, the Boston Newspapers reported that. What makes you so sure they got it right?
I have told you before, the Watches of a ship are carved in Stone (no pun intended). The Chief Officer on a 3-Mate vessel such as was Californian, ALWAYS took the morning Watch, NEVER the Middle Watch. Any conscientious reporter checking his sources would have discovered that in a New York Minute and Captain Lord, who seemed to go by the book, would never have made such a glaring mistake.
The Mainwairing letter
(11)...Think about it. If Mainwairing had " met Stone on one occasion during World War 1." then he could not have been one of Stone's "friends". but merely a brief acquaintance. So what we have here is hearsay at best and simple gossip at worst.
Lord and Stone confrontation
(12)...If Lord was the tyrant he was made out to be, Stone would have stood before him cap off and head bowed while the "Tyrant" berated him concerning the latter''s behaviour. Whether it be Captain Lord or any other MN Captain...a 2nd Officer does not enter into a heated argument with his boss.
Stone hoisted to the Main Truck in a basket as punishment
(13)...If Stone was hoisted to the main truck.it was not as a punishment, but because Stewart, who was really the OOW was on deck engaged in directing the crew in preparations for survivor recovery. The only other Officer - Groves had taken over as OOW of the Chief Officer's Watch. Lord did not have another Officer to act as a lookout. In addition, it was normal practice on all ships when crossing pack ice.to hoist an officer up the mast in a bosun's chair or something similar to look out for what were termed "leads" through the ice.
Stone's son and his mother's recollections of what his father said in later years
(14)...Nothing mind-blasting about that, Julian. Stone did see distress signals that night. Unfortunately, he did not recognise them as such, and never claimed that he did. He only acknowledged them to be such after he heard about the Titanic.
In fact, he must have mentally wrestled with these rockets for many years thereafter since when he saw them, they were in a direction which was totally different to the the direction and bearing of the sinking Titanic from the stopped Californian.
Addendum:
I have just read your last effort (I do go to sleep and have other interests besides
Titanic and
Californian)
You wrote: "The approach you have adopted in respect of my replies is quite the contrary. Seems to me to be more like "I am Jim, and I know best, and everyone who disagrees with me is wrong" That could have been a direct quote from Sam.
In fact, if you honestly read the foregoing you will see that not one single reply is according to " the all knowing Jim". Here are the facts which have nothing to do with my opinions, and you can easily verify them if you truly wish to do so.
A: What Stone described seeing is all in his evidence. I had nothing to do with that and it is a true account of what he said.
B: Stones; Interrogators displayed their rocket knowledge (or lack of it) for all to see. Not my fault, but true nevertheless.
C: The description of what Stone should have seen and heard is a Regulation description. Not Gospel according to "all-knowing Jim".
D: The relative height of a rocket or any light can only be determined by an observer at sea by use of a reference point. A fact which has nothing to do with me.
E: The ability to recognise a ship's stern light at night reduces as the number of lights surrounding it increases. A fact which is again, nothing to do with me. Nor, incidentally, was the arrangement of portholes and lights on the
Californian.
F: The entries to be written into the Log Book are laid down by Regulation. That is a fact and I didn't write said Regulations. The practice of a Deck Officer regarding the use of bearings is also standard. I did not write the Standard for that either.
G: The expression "generally accepts" is used as if it is in some way a fact. To
generally accept something is not proof of fact. That fact stands by itself.
E: Stone's subsequent career has nothing to do with me...simply ask a qualified Psychologist... I did.
F: I asked a question regarding Lord Mersey's opinion of the answers given by Stone. I would be delighted to have an answer from you or from anyone else who
generally accept evidence to the contrary
G: The location of Watches on a British Merchant ship which has 3 mates and a Master is and was standard practice. I did not instigate that practice.
E: The servitude of an Officer to his Captain is regulation. As an officer and a Captain, I have been in both "seats". In that, I am most emphatically correct. If I am branded a
"smarty pants" for that, I make no apology.
Your post No,22 ... the letter to Ed Kamuna from Captain Lord's son. Are you kidding?
What does that prove? I was born long after young Lord, and I do not know of any responsible father in my day who, if he had the future interest of their offspring at heart, failed to be, when he felt like it, [or deemed it warranted] be very severe and intimidating. It's called keeping them on the right lines. At least he didn't beat the hell out of the boy.
Your Post No.23...Stone's Upper Bridge Duties.
My advice to you Julian, for what it is worth, is that unless you have a very thick skin, you do not show that to any experienced Deck Officer.
For sure, Stone was ordered to keep a close watch on the nearby vessel and report any movement she made. To do this, he did not need to stare at her or keep her under constant observation. She was 5 miles or so away and , even under full power would take a considerable time to be any danger to his ship. The direction in which he paced up and down had absolutely no bearing on how he was able to perform all of his duties which were not confined to staring out over the starboard beam, Just imagine the outcome if poor old Stone was staring as you suggest and a small schooner rammed Californian's starboard quarter.
As for Sam's new Book? I wish him well with it. However, I will not be buying it since we fundamentally disagree on all aspects of the
Californian affair. There will be nothing new in it for me, Because if Sam had changed his mind or had any new revelation to make which might have changed my mind, I am sure he would have taken the utmost pleasure in correcting me long before this.
