Titanic making way after collision

[Shiphandling Cowboy]

White Star Line's vice president of New York operations, Phillip A.S. Franklin must have believed those Halifax reports – or had “insider” company information. On the morning of April 15th he chartered two New Haven Railroad trains to pick up Titanic's passengers after they arrived in Halifax. One of those trains was actually rolling north of Boston when definitive word came that Titanic had foundered.

– David G. Brown

David,

That is interesting. Seems rather odd that he would have actually dispatched trains based on a newpaper article. Was there any discussion between Carpathia and shore regarding possibly diverting to Halifax vice New York and perhaps that is why the trains were charted?

Andrew

 

[Scott Mills]

David,

Your post is enlightening to me, as I was thinking along the same lines, but was a bit unsure of myself as I am sure nearly everyone here is more knowledgable than myself.

My initial postulation was the engines were restarted when Boxhall reported no damage. Thinking about it more though, it gets more mysterious.

According to Boxhall's testimony, after reporting to the captain "no damage," Captain Smith immediately asked Boxhall to fetch the carpenter.

This says to me that the Captain wanted a full sounding of Titanic, and you would figure, not trusting Boxhall's cursory inspection, the Master of the vessel would have wanted to wait until a full inspection was done before taking any action--like makin way again.

Also, Boxhall reports immediately running into the carpenter near the bridge, who tells him water is up to f deck. So if Boxhall is not lying, he remembers clearly, and his sense of time is accurate, very near immediately after Boxhall's report he would have been informed of serious damage by the carpenter.

Perhaps here we can wildly speculate that the carpenters report is still not a full sounding. Given this Captain Smith receives the information and knows his ship is damaged in some capacity. Not yet realizing the full extent of the damage he, or Ishmay, decides the most prudent thing would be to head for Halifax. They then message the White Star offices, or Olympic who messages the offices, notifying them of this intent.

Having said that though, Bride makes no mention of this in either inquiry--which I suppose he could have not known since Phillips would have sent the message or he would have a decent reason to cover for his pseudo employer (White Star) and himself.

Even in that case though, wouldn't such a message be intercepted by any number of other ships and land based Marconi stations? And to my knowledge no such message has been documented.

 

[Shiphandling Cowboy]

Even in that case though, wouldn't such a message be intercepted by any number of other ships and land based Marconi stations? And to my knowledge no such message has been documented.

I would certainly think so, unless there were separate 'company' frequencies that they were able to communicate on. I was under the impression that wireless back then was all done over a common freq.

 

[Jake Peterson]

Perhaps here we can wildly speculate that the carpenters report is still not a full sounding. Given this Captain Smith receives the information and knows his ship is damaged in some capacity. Not yet realizing the full extent of the damage he, or Ismay, decides the most prudent thing would be to head for Halifax. They then message the White Star offices, or Olympic who messages the offices, notifying them of this intent.

Having said that though, Bride makes no mention of this in either inquiry--which I suppose he could have not known since Phillips would have sent the message or he would have a decent reason to cover for his pseudo employer (White Star) and himself.

Well, if you inadvertently put more water into YOUR ship, after deciding it was no use to make a 300-mile dash to the nearest landfall, would you want your company to tell the general public that?

WSL already had to pay out $97,000 to various Titanic passenger families. Could you imagine how much more the passengers' lawyers would have asked for if this got out?

I will agree that the three surviving officers probably did do a bit of covering up though. Does either Beesley or Gracie (or any other survivor tesitmony) mention how fast they thought they were going after getting under way?

 

[David G. Brown]

Nobody “knows” anything about what took place aboard Titanic. The people with such knowledge are (sadly) all dead. The best we can do is look at what they said about those events and then try to put them into context. By “context” I mean that the actions have to fit the ordinary practices of seamen and the cultural mores of the day. At best all we can do is interpret the words contained in the transcripts. And, no two people with have the same interpretation.

=====================================

That said, I agree with Andrew about White Star executive Phillip A.S. Franklin not chartering trains based only upon news headlines. He would only have done so if he had first-hand knowledge that Titanic was steaming for Halifax; or, if he had been told to send the trains by WSL headquarters in Liverpool. I'm putting my bet on the latter case. Undersea cable messages were fast and efficient (if expensive) in 1912. It was common practice for both companies and individuals to use word transposition of cipher codes to cut down the cost. So, a message from WSL headquarters to New York might have gone “under the radar” of newspaper reporters.

That leaves the question of how information got to Liverpool. Here we have some tracks in the dust to follow. Specifically, we have paragraph 111 in the IMM/White Star rules:

“111. Accident, Collision, or Salvage. –(b) In case of accident to the vessel requiring her to proceed to a port of refuge, a report should be made at once telegraphed to the Management and to the nearest Company's office, giving particulars of accident and damage.”

This paragraph is perfectly clear. Captain Smith had to “at once” telegraph company headquarters about both Titanic's iceberg damage and any change of destination from New York to Halifax. Smith had at his disposal the most powerful wireless telegraph transmitter on the North Atlantic. It was night, the perfect time for sending messages long distance.

Junior wireless operator Harold Bride claimed Captain Smith's first appearance of the night in the radio office was to alert the operators of the possibility they might have to send out a distress call. Huh? Since when do captains feel the need of alerting anyone in the crew (even quasi crew like Marconi employees) that they might have to do their duty? The answer is, “never.” Whatever the captain's motivation, his first visit to the wireless office was not social.

News organizations in London and New York both published identical stories about Titanic, the iceberg, and steaming for Halifax. Given the state-of-the-art of 1912 communications it's certain that editors did not confer by telephone. The cost of sub-sea wire cables makes this an unlikely pat for sharing news stories. But, there were “electronic eavesdroppers” in 1912. These men listened to wireless traffic seeking information about the rich and famous to sell to news services. One of the men in this clandestine business was David Sarnoff.

Given the state of communications, I suggest that the origin of the “all safe, steaming for Halifax” information was located out on the Atlantic where its signals were fair game from eavesdroppers on both continents. And, I further suggest that Captain Smith's first visit to Titanic's wireless office was to comply with paragraph 111 in the company rule book.

If I'm correct, then the one detail of the Titanic saga that the 1912 news media got correct was the steaming for Halifax with everyone safe. It amuses me to think about all those editors apologizing for their “error” of publishing the truth. Of course, by the time their stories got into print the ship had foundered and events had overtaken the headlines.

– David G. Brown

 

[Scott Mills]

Well, if you inadvertently put more water into YOUR ship, after deciding it was no use to make a 300-mile dash to the nearest landfall, would you want your company to tell the general public that?

WSL already had to pay out $97,000 to various Titanic passenger families. Could you imagine how much more the passengers' lawyers would have asked for if this got out?

I will agree that the three surviving officers probably did do a bit of covering up though. Does either Beesley or Gracie (or any other survivor tesitmony) mention how fast they thought they were going after getting under way?

Sure, there would be plenty of reasons for White Star officers to cover it up--though some of the crew did report that the telegraphs were moved to at leas slow ahead, and one reports half ahead.

Why would these guys not engage in the deception as well? Certainly their careers were also at risk.

And none of this really answers the question of why Titanic resumed their course. As I've said it makes sense if Smith took Boxhall's initial report at face value, but Boxhall says Smith immediately calls for the carpenter--clearly not trusting Boxhall's quick check of the forecastle.

I suppose Boxhall could have lied specifically about this, but this invites the question: why did he stick to this story until his death in 1967. After he retired, and certainly 50 years later, it seems he'd have no reason to keep up the facade.

 

[Scott Mills]

Also have just read a sleu of wireless logs, on the 15th at some point White Star in New York informs Olympic that Titanic is rumored to be afloat, heading to Halifax in company of the Virginian.

What is the source of this rumor. If it were true, Olympic would be in a much better position to have been informed already since they were in wireless distance of all the ships engaged in the rescue effort.

You would think that White Star wouldn't take a rumor not reported by ships in vacinety of Titanic's foundering seriously enough to communicate it to Olympic.

 

[Jake Peterson]

I suppose Boxhall could have lied specifically about this, but this invites the question: why did he stick to this story until his death in 1967. After he retired, and certainly 50 years later, it seems he'd have no reason to keep up the facade.

The easiest answer would be that survivors were still alive. I think they'd be quite angry if one of the surviving officers came out and said "By the way, Titanic initially wasn't thoroughly checked the first time through, so Smith decided to send the carpenter out to check the ship after Boxhall's initial inspection. Unfortunately, we had already moved the ship 2-3 miles, and by then it was too late, and Andrews asserted to Capt. Smith that she was doomed no matter what we did"

“111. Accident, Collision, or Salvage. —(b) In case of accident to the vessel requiring her to proceed to a port of refuge, a report should be made at once telegraphed to the Management and to the nearest Company's office, giving particulars of accident and damage.”

This paragraph is perfectly clear. Captain Smith had to “at once” telegraph company headquarters about both Titanic's iceberg damage and any change of destination from New York to Halifax. Smith had at his disposal the most powerful wireless telegraph transmitter on the North Atlantic. It was night, the perfect time for sending messages long distance.

David- Haven't head of this, but that would make sense. Wonder if Walter Lord was aware of it. I'd think he should have made a mention of it, but perhaps he overlooked that part of the handbook while doing his second book in 1986. I would think that if Smith would have done this, the office would have wired back suggestions, maybe?

 

[Scott Mills]

Well and good, I can understand a cover up by the officers. In fact, didn't Lights granddaughter say that he confessed to her that the accident occurred after Hitchens panicked and turned the wrong way?

But if Smith was required to telegraph White Star why wasn't this message heard by everyone on the North Atlantic that night who had their radios on, or the station at cape race?

Given that it wasn't I feel it is far safer to conclude that no message was ever sent, which would make sense anyway. If your ship is going to sink and you need to evacuate and bring help to you as quickly as possible, the last thing I imagine that worries you is telegraphing the company headquarters.

Also, ancillary to this is: why wouldn't every crew member be in on the fix if you will?

 

[Jake Peterson]

Well and good, I can understand a cover up by the officers. In fact, didn't Lights granddaughter say that he confessed to her that the accident occurred after Hitchens panicked and turned the wrong way?

I think I saw a thread on the old board discussing whether or not this was actually the case. One poster (don't remember who it was, now) saying that if this was the case, how come no one had stepped up to claim it in a "secrets revealed" sort of way. Think about it: if Hichens had turned the wheel the wrong way, the crew would want to keep that a secret, sure, but usually it's hard to keep one between more than two people, and in this case, there were 705 people who survived. Wouldn't someone have heard this and cashed in on it?

 

[Scott Mills]

I think I saw a thread on the old board discussing whether or not this was actually the case. One poster (don't remember who it was, now) saying that if this was the case, how come no one had stepped up to claim it in a "secrets revealed" sort of way. Think about it: if Hichens had turned the wheel the wrong way, the crew would want to keep that a secret, sure, but usually it's hard to keep one between more than two people, and in this case, there were 705 people who survived. Wouldn't someone have heard this and cashed in on it?

No, you are right I think, this probably was not the case. In fact, I think Lightoller's granddaughter claimed that her mother told her this, long after lights death, which makes the claim more dubious.

Having said that, it has long been assumed that the surving officers went to great lengths to protect Smith's reputation and White Star in general, and none of them ever came clean about this.

And as far as the claim by the granddaughter who would have known. The only people on the bridge at (or near) the time of the collision who survived were the QM who would have made the error and Boxhall who would have certainly lied about this to keep his job since an admission would make White Star liable for the accident.

Then who else might have been told about this after the fact? Ismay certainly who would never reveal this. Perhaps Andrews who perished and the senior bridge crew all of whom died except Lightoller.

So really you'd have to rely on a conspiracy of Ismay, Lightoller, Hitchens and maybe Lowe.

None of whom would want to share this information, at least while still working. Not only could they possibly have been found personally liable, but White Star certainly would. They would have lost their jobs and I find it very unlikely any other line would touch them--effectively ending their careers and lively hood.

Even as it played out none of Titanic's officers ever received their own command on a merchant vessel.

 

[Scott Mills]

I'm forgetting Pittman. So if Lightoller's granddaughter is correct, the only people who would know for sure would be Murdoch and Hichens--probably Boxhall if he didn't lie about arriving on the bridge as Murdoch was attempting to maneuver Titanic.

Of those three Hichens (I think) and Boxhall survive. Bot have adequate reason to not be truthful.

In reality Captain Smith and Ismay would probably have been aware. Smith perished and Ismay absolutely would have a reason to lie.

Maybe Andrews would have been made aware, or maybe not. In an case he goes down with his ship.

But the story comes from Lightoller's granddaughter, so if true he may have been told. Assuming that Boxhall knew, it wouldn't really make sense to leave out Pittman.

All three survive, but have a compelling reason to lie/obfuscate. First for their careers, and then later, because as you say survivors were still alive.

Last, but likely not to be told would be Lowe and Moody. Iirc, Lowe was forgotten about and had to come on deck well after the collision. If he had been told something as damaging as this, he would too have reasons to lie. Moody dies so if he were told it would be a mute point.

So in total you'd have minimum 4 people who would have to know given the origin of the rummer, who was on the bridge and who was managing director of the line--at least who survived.

Maximum would be 6--all with a really compelling reason to lie, and stick to that lie.

And from what I remember o the story the wheel was supposed to have been hard over the wrong direction for a few seconds. Not enough time for the ships course to noticeably change (and thus none of the survivors not previously mentioned would know) but more than enough time to muddle the attempt to port around the berg and insure a collision/grounding.

BUT, now that I've typed this all out (on my phone nonetheless) I will reiterate I found this story dubious at best.

If true the only person known to ever come clean would have been Lights, and our knowledge of it from his granddaughter, who was told by his wife, well after he died.

So while I would stil have to file this in "I guess it's possible" I will stick with the original description of the collision until some sort of reasonable evidence suggests reality contradicts it.

 

[Shiphandling Cowboy]

probably Boxhall if he didn't lie about arriving on the bridge as Murdoch was attempting to maneuver Titanic.

Actually, Boxhall did not arrive on the bridge until after the collision. According to his BBC interview, he was in his cabin drinking tea when the 'berg was sighted and on his way to the bridge when the collision occured (herd the lookouts ring the bell and proceeded to the bridge) and arrived about the same time as Captain Smith. He would not have been there for the maneuvering attempts and since he immediately left to check for damage after that, I doubt he would have had a good picture of what the engine orders were after the collision. His only comment regarding engine orders was that when he arrived on the Bridge, Murdoch told the Captain that he was backing on the port engine.

V/r,
Andrew C. Hochhaus

 

[Scott Mills]

Actually, Boxhall did not arrive on the bridge until after the collision. According to his BBC interview, he was in his cabin drinking tea when the 'berg was sighted and on his way to the bridge when the collision occured (herd the lookouts ring the bell and proceeded to the bridge) and arrived about the same time as Captain Smith. He would not have been there for the maneuvering attempts and since he immediately left to check for damage after that, I doubt he would have had a good picture of what the engine orders were after the collision. His only comment regarding engine orders was that when he arrived on the Bridge, Murdoch told the Captain that he was backing on the port engine.

V/r,
Andrew C. Hochhaus

Andrew,

Yep, you are correct. Just listened to that interview. Compelling stuff that makes me wish the surving crew was still around to pick for details!

He was, according to Boxhall, arriving on the bridge in time to see something passing on the starboard. So he would have been there immediately after the collision--if I am putting this altogether correctly in my brain.

 

[Scott Mills]

So interestingly, I just read a little blurb about the incorrect helm theory--and let me be frank, I still don't give it much weight, but speculation is fun.

So according to Lady Patton--lights granddaughter--events unfold as follows.

Fleet spots the berg, Murdoch orders Hichens to put the wheel hard over to starboard.

Hichens panicks, puts the wheel hard over to port. Murdoch catches this almost immediately and orders the correction--but it is too late Titanic is hit by the berg.

The only people who are told about this, in a meeting held in Murdochs cabin with Ismay, Smith, Wilde Murdoch, and Lightoller this is revealed. They are the only 5 to know, not including Hichens himself. So of that group only 2 live: Ismay and Lightoller.

Lightoller hides this for the rest of his life. First because he is worried that it will cost him, and all of his shipmates to lose their jobs and to never be able to work again. Much later in life to protect his reputation and the reputations of his fellow officers both survivors and those he died on the ship.

And interestingly, to the point of this thread, Lady Patton claims that (I'm not sure when, maybe at this meeting) Ismay more or less orders Smith to begin making way again. So Titanic steams slow ahead for 10 minutes before the full gravity of the damage is comprehended.