Titanic making way after collision

[Scott Mills]

Is there a way to edit posts, so I don't have to add a new reply right under myself? But in any case regarding Lightoller's granddaughter and her theory. I found myself reading Ismay's communication with White Star from Carpathia tonight, and when thinking with the lens of Light's reported "confession," Ismay's obsession with having Cedric wait to immediately return all of Titanic's crew seems so very ominous.

But, they're are plenty of reasons for that desire beyond: "We hit an iceberg after crew error, then I pressured Captain Smith to resume course at slow ahead."

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I found myself reading Ismay's communication with White Star from Carpathia tonight, and when thinking with the lens of Light's reported "confession," Ismay's obsession with having Cedric wait to immediately return all of Titanic's crew seems so very ominous.<<

It only looks ominous when seen through the lens of 20/20 hindsight. Ismay was not trying to make good some sort of escape because he had no reason to believe that the American Senate would conduct an inquiry. In point of fact, this development came as a complete surprise to him. He didn't even know anything was being laid on until he was handed a summons to appear by Senator Smith himself.

He did have every reason to expect an inquiry to be held in the UK and that crewmen would be summoned and that was just par for the course. Holding a ship to repatriate the surviving crewmembers was simply a measure to get them home as soon as possible, get this out of the way, and let them seek new employment so they could make a living.

 

[Scott Mills]

Then why so eager to get the crew out of New York? Most of his communications from Carpathia center on this, and he basically says that waiting a single day is a bad idea.

Not really knowing much about the aftermath of the disaster I always thought that he wanted to avoid an immediate American enquiry as this was an unknown factor.

It seemed he would be more familiar with a BoT inquiry back home and that the audience would be more friendly as this was a British registered ship from a large British run (though American owned) shipping line.

In addition to that, going home on the slower Cedric would have given Ismay time to be sure everyone was on the same page as far as to what they were going to say, as he didn't have much time to do this on Carpathia.

Also, I don't want to say Ismay was a bad person--for God's sake he was a survivor of a horrible disaster--but it never really seemed that he had the best interests of the crew at heart. For example, he did nothing to ensure that the list of surviving crew made it off Carpathia before she docked, despite numerous request by the home office begging for information as the crews families were in agony waiting to learn if their loved ones were dead.

Because of this, I guess, it never occurred to me that wanting the crew back at sea headed could have been altruistic.

 

[Bags]

Well, my interpretation of Ismay's actions is somewhat different. (Though admittedly, there is a certain amount of wiggle room in the affair as documented to permit some suspicion)

Ismay had a vested interest in getting the Titanic's crew back to England on a few different fronts;

- the crew ceased to be payed from the moment Titanic sank, so the sooner they got back to england to find work the better
- having that quantity of sailors loose in a 'foreign' port is/was a recipe for disaster, idle hands etc etc.
- there was a reasonable expectation the the BoT would want to do an inquiry, and therefore having the 'witnesses' standing by where they could offer testimony and then get back to the sea was in the best interests of expediency on all fronts

I must admit to not being over fond of him in principle, but frankly I don't see enough evidence against him to condemn his actions. I do believe him to be the victim of some fairly egregious circumstances, where his actions (or inactions) could easily be mis-interpreted. (which to my mind is more the issue. I would have expected more from the owner/operator of such a large merchant line insofar as forethought to the interpretation of actions is concerned)

 

[Scott Mills]

I agree with you regarding Ismay. His reputation was forever ruined, not so much for his culpability in Titanic's as much as the fact that he survived at all.

And that's why I'm reluctant to condem the man, even if my speculation is right, because God knows what he was going through in the immediate aftermath of the sinking. Not only did his shipping line lose its newest vessel, which was an underinsured mammoth investment, and with that vessel nearly two thousand lives, but he was on that vessel when it was lost.

And really mostly we are engaged speculation about someone's motives with very limited evidence.

Also, I had heard Titanic's crew weren't paid after she foundered. I know it was a different time, but hell. You'd think they'd have made an exception. At very minimum they were still doing their jobs, in at least some capacity, while in the boats before Carpathia picked them up.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Then why so eager to get the crew out of New York? Most of his communications from Carpathia center on this, and he basically says that waiting a single day is a bad idea.<<

I think I already answered that one. There was no reason to expect that there would be an American Inquiry to avoid. While the ship was American owned by way of the IMM, she was British registered and operated under the laws of the UK and the international agreements and treaties that nation was a party to. The U.S. Senate Inquiry was an extremely unusual event as the Senate rarely if ever investigated shipwrecks.

Getting the surviving crew home was the compassionate thing to do as it would allow them to answer any questions at the inquiry that Ismay knew would be awaiting them in the UK then allow them to find new employment. In a day and age when there was no "social safety net" this was a very important consideration.

 

[Scott Mills]

>>Then why so eager to get the crew out of New York? Most of his communications from Carpathia center on this, and he basically says that waiting a single day is a bad idea.

I think I already answered that one. There was no reason to expect that there would be an American Inquiry to avoid. While the ship was American owned by way of the IMM, she was British registered and operated under the laws of the UK and the international agreements and treaties that nation was a party to. The U.S. Senate Inquiry was an extremely unusual event as the Senate rarely if ever investigated shipwrecks.

Getting the surviving crew home was r compassionate thing to do as it would allow them to answer any questions at the inquiry that Ismay knew would be awaiting them in the UK then allow them to find new employment. In a day and age when there was no "social safety net" this was a very important consideration.

Michael,

I think you are probably right. As I've said I am just engaging in speculation regarding the motives of one man a hundred years ago with just a little evidence.

There are just a few things that leave me with some reservations. For instance his refusal to give any "particulars" about the sinking to White Star from Carpathia--granted this was a fresh wound and he might not wanted to broadcast to everyone the details.

More strongly though, the fact that he outright ignored multiple requests from White Star in London for a list of surving crew, despite at least one very emotional appeal from that office.

I just find this hard to square with the idea he was just trying to do right by the crew.

Also, it worries me that the conscientious thing to do would be to get these guys back to the UK right away, without even a day to recover in New York. Especially if he had no thought at all that the Americans might investigate.

Hindsight being 20/20 it seems just the opposite to be sending these men and women back out to sea immediately after they all nearly died there 4 days prior. And knowing there would be a BoT inquiry, you are sending the crew back to the UK, without rest, where you know that they will be immediately grilled and have to sit for testimony.

There is the fact that the Titanic crew stopped being paid the moment Titanic foundered. Fair enough. It seems though that in any case most of the crew would have lost their books, and be unable to work until they received new ones. So no matter what side of the Atlantic they were on, they couldn't work until White Star helped to replace them. And for those who could work immediately, wouldn't it have been just as easy to find a ship in New York as it would have been Southhampton?

Which brings me to the very last reservation (and just a pet peeve in general). If White Star gave a crap about Titanic's crew they could have continued to pay the crew despite normal operative procedure. Or they could have given the surviving crew bounties, as they did Carpathia's crew, for the "heroic sacrifice and commitment to their duty" the night Titanic foundered. Hell, this would have even been a great pr move if nothing else.

Looking back this list looks expansive and it seems I just doubt everything you've said. This is not the case--I am merely expressing these nagging questions at the back of my mind.

 

[Bags]

RE: Crew particulars; Actually, that was a bone of contention at the US inquiry to a certain extent. The marconi man on Carpathia did in fact transmit several lists of survivors, which were received by a station on land (in New York even I think), there seems to have been some confusion as to precisely where it got to from there. And yes, there was a concern about txing company information over "free air" iirc.

RE: Getting back to work; I must admit, from where I'm sitting in 2012, that idea has.....little appeal shall I say, . Having said that, the crew would have had some rest aboard Cedric on their way back to jolly ol' England, and more to the point, imo, they would not have been badgered by reporters. (I don't believe Ismay was trying to keep them quiet in that case, I suspect it was more to let them have some peace)

RE: Finding work; Well... Yeah, that one is a bit fuzzy to me as well, though I think that White Star would have rather kept the lads in their own employ rather than loose them to another line. At least that's my impression from the testimonies.

RE: Kept paying the crew; Indeed, that would have been from our perspective the thing to do. Though again, I suspect that our enlightened perspective, , probably arose through situations such as this. The laws governing 'pay' never really saw the light of day until well into th 40's iirc. Though if someone has more info on the 'why' here, (besides the obvious, "they wern't working anymore", lol), I would be most curious.

Regards,
D.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>There are just a few things that leave me with some reservations. For instance his refusal to give any "particulars" about the sinking to White Star from Carpathia--granted this was a fresh wound and he might not wanted to broadcast to everyone the details.<<

I think this is making more of then is actually there. The Carpathia had only one Marconi man and he was so swamped with the sudden workload that was dumped on him, it was necessary to coax Bride out of his sickbed (He was suffering from the effects of hypothermia and frostbitten feet) to help him out. The workload was such that when the Carpathia finally docked, an exhausted Bride was found still at the key tapping messages out.

Let's not forget that radio as a voice medium was a long way off so the only way they could send messages was by tapping on a key vis a vis by way of Morse Code. If that wasn't bad enough, the radios in use then had a range limitation which meant that anything the Carpathia sent had to be routed either through Cape Race or other ships, then any sort of reply had to make it's way back by way of the same path. There was no satallite relay...that was at least 50 years off...no cellphone constellation in geosynchronous orbit or anything like that. The instant voice comms which we take for granted today just didn't exist. The technology they had then was cutting edge by the standards of 1912, and cumbersome beyond all belief by out own but that was all they had.

The problem here is that you're looking at this through the prism of today's standards, but this isn't 2012 we're talking about. It's 1912.

Beware anachronism.

 

[Scott Mills]

RE: Crew particulars; Actually, that was a bone of contention at the US inquiry to a certain extent. The marconi man on Carpathia did in fact transmit several lists of survivors, which were received by a station on land (in New York even I think), there seems to have been some confusion as to precisely where it got to from there. And yes, there was a concern about txing company information over "free air" iirc.

RE: Getting back to work; I must admit, from where I'm sitting in 2012, that idea has.....little appeal shall I say, . Having said that, the crew would have had some rest aboard Cedric on their way back to jolly ol' England, and more to the point, imo, they would not have been badgered by reporters. (I don't believe Ismay was trying to keep them quiet in that case, I suspect it was more to let them have some peace)

RE: Finding work; Well... Yeah, that one is a bit fuzzy to me as well, though I think that White Star would have rather kept the lads in their own employ rather than loose them to another line. At least that's my impression from the testimonies.

RE: Kept paying the crew; Indeed, that would have been from our perspective the thing to do. Though again, I suspect that our enlightened perspective, , probably arose through situations such as this. The laws governing 'pay' never really saw the light of day until well into th 40's iirc. Though if someone has more info on the 'why' here, (besides the obvious, "they wern't working anymore", lol), I would be most curious.

Regards,
D.

Very good point about not wanting the crew to be battered by reporters (or maybe not wanting them to say something harmful).

The irony here is that--if Ismay was worried about getting the crew back to work--the reporters would have paid handsomely for the crew's stories.

By the way "that's the way things were then" is no excuse for not taking care of your crew. Particularly given that White Star gave bounties, or reward money, to all of Carpathia's crew.

Also, for a company that cared so much for its employees, it sure doesn't show when it came to the surviving officers, none of whom made Captain on a merchant vessel with either White Star or Cunard White Star.

So this is a question maybe you can answer. Though the officers would obviously be salaried staff with White Star, I was under the impression that for most of the grunt work (like firemen and the like) you wouldn't work the same boats or the same line.

So one voyage they might be on Lusitania, the next Cedric, and then maybe Olympic. I took that as the major purpose of crew "books" as it documented which ships you served on and what you did on them.

Is this wrong?

 

[Jake Peterson]

Also, for a company that cared so much for its employees, it sure doesn't show when it came to the surviving officers, none of whom made Captain on a merchant vessel with either White Star or Cunard White Star.

If I remember from Walter Lord's book, he stated that the company didn't want to remind passengers of its darkest hour, so none of the surviving crew members got their own command.

apparently their thinking was that the passenger would look at one of the crewmembers and exclaim "OMG, a former Titanic crewmember! we're all going to die on this ship!"

It kind of sounds ridiculous when you think about it.

 

[Bags]

@ Scott; re;"the way things were..." I agree, not an excuse at all. But it remains a fact, much like us selling out on the Avro, the various war crimes that were committed, indentured servitude or even slavery for that matter. Never said it was right, just said it was. .

re: Sailors and logs; well, I'd suspect, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, that most lines would have wanted to keep most everything down to and possibly including AB's (assuming they were competent and got along with folk) on account that they'd become accustomed to the way a particular line operated and the standards they wanted met. The books, I suspect were a combination of 'resume including references' and a way of keeping track of what they were at in off time. IE; "I see you haven't put to sea in 6 months..what were you up to?" (possibly a measure of how current they were as well?)

@Jake; Indeed it does at that, though at that time, many people were superstitious (or at least a little stitious, sorry it was there, ). From what I understand anyway. I could be blowing smoke too.

Regards,
D.

 

[Scott Mills]

If I remember from Walter Lord's book, he stated that the company didn't want to remind passengers of its darkest hour, so none of the surviving crew members got their own command.

apparently their thinking was that the passenger would look at one of the crewmembers and exclaim "OMG, a former Titanic crewmember! we're all going to die on this ship!"

It kind of sounds ridiculous when you think about it.

Jake,

Yeah, obviously these guys were blacklisted in some capacity for the rest of their careers. I know that something like the reasoning you gave was used at first, and then later... who knows.

I will say this though, and maybe I should complain about people's perceptions rather than White Star itself, but it's not like these men were terminated.

Most of them had long careers with the line, and served as high as CO on some very important ships. So it isn't like anyone could have ever said "thank god there is no chance the ship I am traveling on want be commanded at some point we are at sea by a Titanic officer."

And most of these guys received decorations for their service commanding ships at war. After 1914-1918 you'd think that would take presidence over Titanic. Hell I wouldn't have been surprised if nobody cared anything about Titanic after the suffering of that war.