Titanic's bow name plates

[Scott R. Andrews]

From a post above by James:
"I have not seen the rigging plans for 433 so I cannot confirm if the name should be cut in like Titanic."

James,

Regarding the letters of the names and port of registry for the Britannic, I pulled the rigging drawings for all three sisters last night, and all three drawings specify the same thing: 18-inch letters cut in for the name on both bows and the stern, and 12-inch letters cut in for the port of registry.

As for whether the Canberra was carrying her name at the time of launch, yes, she was, both forward and aft. The following site, http://www.sscanberra.com/ , has both a video of the color newsreel footage of the launch and a slide show of still images taken from this film. The film of the launch is great to see and, for you, I'm sure it will spark many happy memories.

Regards,
Scott Andrews

 

[James Alexander Carlisle]

Thanks Scott,

There was a programme on here on BBC Northern Ireland entitled "Wee Three Cranes" about the three steam cranes at H&W. Telling the history of H&W and it showed the launch of Canberra with her name on here. That day I was so amazed at this gigantic ship moving down the slipway with no water under her. First she moved so slow then she picked up a lot of speed. That's the way she looked to me. I was on the starboard side with the workers (I was only 8 1/2 years old) but I was with my Dad and Grandfather. In other words three Alexander Carlisles.

BTW I have made a DVD copy of Wee Three Cranes and Titanic, Birth of a Legend full version.

 

[david wilson]

Bob & Jim,thanks for the vote of confidence in yours truly.
For the benefit of Matt Newman,I'll go over the procedure again.
Full size "draw around templates" of the letters would have been made by the mould loft,from drawings supplied by the drawing office.These were given to the shell squad marker off plater.Then using predetermined construction lines & frm numbers,the plater placed the templates on the port & starboard plts & drew round them.His helper or apprentice would then "dab them in" (belfast vernacular for centerpunching)about 1" apart.This created a degree of permanency untill the caulker arrived(hammer & chisel man).The apprentice plater would more than likely have chalked in the name,it's called "signature".He could then boast to his peers about what he'd done.This is what we are looking at on the photo of the port bow.Trust me,no tradesman painted that.The caulker,using a cold chisel with a "V" edge about 1" wide & a 2 lb hammer would follow these dabs,hitting the chisel vertically down 3 or 4 times.This would leave elongated indentations similiar to the grooves on the face of a golfing iron,only deeper.The boat wouldv'e been painted black before the name was painted.The painting was done on the slip or in the dry dock.
I worked in a small yard in Newross Co Wexford Ireland in 1970 & one of my responsibilities was to mark the draft marks & chisel them in using an air hammer.
Hope this helps you Matt.
regards.
dw.

 

[James Alexander Carlisle]

David,

That sounds about right to me. The latest film found shows a dull lettering of Titanic. This for me is 100% evidence that the switch theory is load of nonsence. I knew it before and this just makes more so.

All the best

 

[Bob Read]

David:
Great explanation as always. If you don't mind my asking, when did you work at H&W? Some have suggested that they probably used a more sophisticated procedure (milling machine) for cutting in the letters on Titanic but my argument was that if they were still using a non machine hand method when you were there later, why would we expect that a more sophisticated procedure would be used in 1911?

Regards,
Bob Read

 

[david wilson]

Bob,regarding the "milling"of the letters,no way.To get a 30'x6'x1/2"plt into a milling machine,can't see it.To use a portable one,if there's such a beast,I've never seen or heard of one.To mark the name today the same templates would be used,dabbed in & then a welder would follow these dabs with a small "bead"of arc welding.I'm not a very artistic person,I'm practical.To me a true artist is somebody who sets out to capture a moment in time.Like John Constable,he wanted to share with the world this beautiful scene he's been looking at for the past few hours.Today we use a camera!!!This method of identification is used around the world,in shipyards,bridges,mining,petrochemical &
structural.This is ideal if the item is to be galvanised or,in the titanic's case,painted.In a ship's case the marking was permanent for future re-painting & that is all it was for.So for my part regarding the lettering on the bow,I think we can put this issue to bed,next!!!lol.
When I started in H&W in nov 1958 there was 4 jobs to start in.paint boy(rivet counter),message boy(main office)catch boy(riveter)(only one "t"Jim)& marker boy(plater)I started as a marker boy.My payroll # (boord #) was 23359.That means there was another 23358 souls as well as I.I started an apprenticeship as a plater not long after & in 1964 left H&W for the first time to sign up with H M forces as a boilermaker.I've travelled half the globe as one of these & I've lost count of the times I went back to the "yard".I've been in perth wa for the past 24 yrs.At present I'm employed as a mine site maintenance boilermaker welder.I work 2 wks on 2 wks off, fly in fly out(FIFO),all over wa.I have just started my 2 off on sun passed.On my shift just passed I spent 2 days on a chinese ore carrier.I was never so glad to get off a boat in all my life,the rust & paint was all that was holding it in one piece.
I hope this helps all concerned.
regards.
seven degrees west!!!
dw.

 

[Bob Read]

David:
Thanks for the information. What you said is what I suspected: That the purpose of cutting in the outline of the letters of the name was so that succesive paintings could duplicate the original without having to use things like stencils and the like.
Scott Andrews mentioned another important aspect in this equation:cost. If the procedure can be done accurately and in a resonable time by hand,
why would a complex milling procedure be undertaken? I personally believe the procedures you outlined are the ones that were used on Titanic. However, I won't categorically say that those who believe the letters were fully cut in are absolutely wrong. The weight of the evidence (much of which you have graciously provided) is enought to persuade me. If those who hold the opposing view are not similarly convinced then all we need is irrefutable evidence. The only way I think that can be provided is if the name area on the wreck is completely scrubbed of rusticles and very sharp close-up photos are taken with sufficient lighting to bring out the extent and location of the cuts.
There is another aspect of this debate that I'm dying to bring up that will probably create a firestorm of debate. For now I'll keep my powder dry until this thread plays out.

Regards,
Bob Read

 

[david wilson]

Dave Gittins,salutations from the great south land.What you say about the painter cutting in is correct.The hull of titanic was painted black after the caulker had left his indentations with the chisel.The area would have been rubbed down by the painter & then he would have painted in the name.Cutting in with paint into the indents.
regards.
seven degrees west.
dw.

 

[James Alexander Carlisle]

Dave,

I've never wrote two T in riveter. I got the correct spelling from My Granda's Indenture.

BTW the boord number doesn't mean how many worked there. In front of me I have my Da's permit from during the War Board (official spelling) 34567. It depicts where in the Yard you worked. I'll attach a copy of it.

 

[Dave Gittins]

G'day, David W, also from the Land Down Under.

Somewhere I found that the Plimsoll line was required to be marked by a method much as you describe. I'd have to dig to find it again.

I hope you are not getting fried over there. I recommend keeping away from Port Hedland unless you are fireproof.

 

[Scott R. Andrews]

"...Somewhere I found that the Plimsoll line was required to be marked by a method much as you describe. I'd have to dig to find it again..."

Hi Dave,

The Plimsoll marking being cut into the steel wouldn't surprise me at all, if not by regulation, than just for practical purposes. In high resolution, large format copies of some of the well-known H&W photos of the Olympic in the graving dock during fitting out, the light cast from the sun is just right -- from the shadows and highlights present, you can clearly make out the edges of the cut-in draft marks on the glossy surfaces, just as David Wilson describes them, even with the characters already painted in. (Photography ca. 1912 may have been primitive by today's standards, but the clarity and detail on some of RW's plates is, at times, nothing short of astonishing!) Further, the two lines used to mark the positions of the yellow band are still plainly visible on the "Big Piece". It seems that all of the major permanent painted boundaries were cut into the steel, so I would imagine that the Plimsoll marking and the associated deck level markings above this would have been cut into the steel as well.

Regards,
Scott Andrews

 

[Bob Read]

Well, I guess now is as good a time as any to throw out the next piece in the name puzzle.
This would fall under the heading of "the eye can deceive". If you look at the bow name letters they look like simple block letters with
primarily vertical and horizontal aspects. I believe this is where the eye deceives. I believe that the letters are actually italicized with a slight (approximately 7 degree) slant forward of vertical. The photo I am linking to is the evidence. http://webpages.charter.net/bpread/photos/italic.jpg. This is a fitting out photo of Titanic. I have highlighted plate laps in the area of the name in red. I have highlighted them because they are our references. The plate laps were 90 degrees (vertical) in relation to the horizontal keel. In this photo we have a couple of things throwing us off. First, the ship has the bow raised higher than the stern so the keel is not resting horizontally. Second, the curve of sheer is rising in this area.
The only bedrock reference we have are the plate laps. They are are at 90 degrees vertical if the keel is at 0 degrees horizontal. If you look at the photo where the red plate laps are indicated you will notice that the vertical legs of the letters actually are angled forward with respect to the plate laps. The horizontal aspects are roughly parallel to the plate edges they are painted upon. Therefore if you had the keel at exactly horizontal the letters would be italicized with a slight forward tilt. By way of supporting evidence, the rigging plans of all three sister ships show the same thing. Also plate lap analysis of all three sister ships show the same thing.

Some may have realized this all along. I was slow coming to accept this but I will have to give Peter Davies-Garner credit for standing his ground in this argument when many opposed him.
I now see that he was right and wanted to throw this into the mix.

Regards,
Bob Read

 

[James Alexander Carlisle]

Bob,

I'll tell you what I did with the photograph. I loaded it into PowerPoint and wrote the Name TITANIC using double spacing between the letters. The font I used was Ariel and lined them up on the next plate down, rotating slightly was necessary, but I couldn't use italic, not even slightly.

It looks like they used the bottom of the plate for guidance.

 

[Bob Read]

James:
First I agree that horizontal aspects of the letters follow the edge of the plate. I think I may have an idea why you had a problem using the method you used.
The problem is that we are looking at the port side. Normal italicization rotates the vertical aspects of the letters clockwise. That is what happened on the starboard side. However, on the port side the letters being slanted toward the forward end of the ship actually requires a reverse italicization where the vertical aspects of the letters are rotated counterclockwise.
I don't know of any italicization function on computers where the vertical aspects of letters can be rotated counterclockwise.
The constant on both sides is that the vertical aspects of the letters slant toward the forward end of the ship. Why you have to reverse the normal italicization of the starboard side when going to port is because the first letter of the name on the starboard side starts aft and the name ends forward. On the port side the first letter of the name starts forward and the letters proceed aft.
This explanation may sound confusing but just remember that the plate laps on both sides are vertical and the vertical parts of the letters on both sides slant forward.

Regards,
Bob Read

 

[James Alexander Carlisle]

Bob,

One of the questions my Grandfather asked me when I was little was " What goes one way on one side of the Ship and the opposite on the other side of a ship."

Well you are working with it now. The name.