What were DE Bristow's Two Mystery Ships

[Parks Stephenson]

The message from DFT that prompted Phillips' outburst has been worded in a couple of different ways. The most critical interpretation is that the request showed either the Telefunken operator or the ship's captain (or both) as being an idiot; the most sympathetic, that the message was a request for information (our German listmembers will appreciate the difficulty of conveying the exact nuance into Englisch) so that the Frankfurt would know how to prepare.

The argument could be made that none of this mattered...the fact is (according to Bride) that Phillips received it as a boneheaded request and cut DFT off. The message was received at 0150. The ship's fate was known by then. Sure, Carpathia was coming, but didn't Phillips think (at the time) that Frankfurt was closer? If so, why would he cut out a possible venue of rescue? Because he was peeved? I have heard various reasons why he would do this (from corporate rivalry to salvage rights to simple irritation), but none settle my nagging doubts. I just have the feeling that there's something that we're overlooking.

Parks

 

[Parks Stephenson]

Addendum to my last...another factor in my uneasiness with the whole Frankfurt incident is my uncertainty about Marconi's role. In my opinion, he was playing something behind the scenes at the Senate Inquiry and involving Bride in whatever it was. First of all, there was the closed-door session that Marconi had with Bride aboard the Carpathia. Then the repeated interjections, some solicited, some not, throughout Bride's testimony. And Marconi was not entirely forthright, especially when talking about the equipment aboard Frankfurt and his relationship with DEBEG. Like I said, the explanations I have read leave too many unanswered questions.

Like that never happens in Titanic research.

Parks

 

[Dave Gittins]

Other than Bride's evidence, what proof have we that the infamous exchange ever took place? I know of no other ship that heard it. At one stage, Bride seems to try to dismiss Phillips' reply as being sent too fast to be read. Have we Frankfurt's PV?

 

[George Behe]

Parks wrote:

>Thanks for that, but that's what I referred to as >the "conventional explanation" (I first >encountered
>it in 'The Maiden Voyage,' including the bit >where Smith muttered into his beard).

Hi, Parks!

My own statements are based on original research utilizing primary source material.(BTW, have you read my Commutator article on the Frankfurt incident?)

>I've read
>through the message exchange between DFT and MGY >several times and I'm not convinced
>that actually was the case,

If your source for the wireless messages was the two inquiries (and the info that appears in their summaries), you haven't read all the messages.

> although Frankfurt's apparently slow grasp of >the situation may
>certainly have played a part.

There was no slow grasp of the situation, though -- Zippel knew from the outset that the Titanic was in trouble.

>..the fact is (according to Bride) that
>Phillips received it as a boneheaded request and >cut DFT off. The message was received at
>0150.

Approximately. (According to the Ypiranga, Frankfurt apparently sent it at 11:58 NYT, or 1:48 Titanic time.)

>The ship's fate was known by then.

Not to the Frankfurt (or, for that matter, to a number of other vessels); the last transmission Zippel heard directly from the Titanic occurred at 1:25 am.

>Sure, Carpathia was coming, but didn't Phillips >think
>(at the time) that Frankfurt was closer?

According to Bride, yes.

>If so, >why would he cut out a possible venue of rescue?
>Because he was peeved?

Hold on, old chap! Phillips didn't cut out a possible source of rescue at all -- all he did was send "Stdbi -- stdbi -- stdbi!" to try and get Zippel to keep quiet and listen. (Zippel was unable to hear the Titanic, though.)

Dave wrote:

>Other than Bride's evidence, what proof have we >that the infamous exchange ever took place? I
>know of no other ship that heard it.

Hi, Dave!

Ypiranga apparently did, although her operator didn't write down the verbatim text of Zippel's message; all he wrote in his PV was "DFT ruft MGY." (Phillips replied two minutes later with "stdbi -- stdbi -- stdbi!")

>Have we Frankfurt's PV?

Yes, it's illustrated in my Commutator article.

All my best,

George

 

[Parks Stephenson]

George,

Like you, I prefer primary source material. My reference to Marcus' book was just by way of illustration of how long the story has been circulating in the popular literature, as far as I know.

Not being a member of THS (can you see *me* as a member?), I don't receive the Commutator, so I haven't read your article. I have had access to original message traffic, including a scan of DFT's PV, but without having read your article, I can't say whether or not I have seen all the messages to which you refer.

I agree with you that the early exchanges between DFT and MGY show that it was known in Frankfurt that Titanic was in trouble. Please don't confuse my response, old chap, to another's question as my own viewpoint.

So, George, back to the big picture...do I understand correctly that your version of events is that Phillips gave DFT a Standby while he processed what he considered to be more urgent traffic and never got back to him? Or would it be better for me to prevail upon one of my THS friends to loan me their Commutator so that I can read your article?

Parks

 

[Dave Gittins]

From what George is saying, Bride's "You are a fool" remains unproven. It also sounds as if Phillips was not as angry as is made out, if he took two minutes to reply.

According to the time you give, the episode took place before Captain Smith released the operators from their duty, which means that Bride's timing of it was right in the US but wrong in Mersey's court and in his letter to Cross. I'd love to see the PV. Any chance of posting it here?

 

[George Behe]

Parks wrote:

>So, George, back to the big picture...do I >understand correctly that your version of events >is that
>Phillips gave DFT a Standby while he processed >what he considered to be more urgent traffic
>and never got back to him?

Hi, Parks!

No, I'm afraid Bride was simply *mistaken* about Zippel not getting back to Phillips, since Zippel did indeed send Frankfurt's position to the Titanic. (His message was monitored by at least three different vessels.) It appears that Phillips just failed to keep Bride informed re: which ships he was in contact with (or else Bride simply failed to hear Phillips' own replies due to steam blowing off outside the Marconi cabin.) In any case, Bride (who basically acted as Phillips' errand boy during the sinking) had to rely on Phillips for his information, and Phillips seems to have been too busy to keep Bride informed about every message he received that night. (Either that or Phillips himself failed to receive Frankfurt's position; in any case, though, the fault for the 'misunderstanding' between Frankfurt and Titanic did not lie with Zippel.

>Not being a member of THS (can you see *me* as a >member?),

Why not? (In any case, you're sure missing out on a lot of current Titanic research, old chap.)

Dave wrote:

>:From what George is saying, Bride's "You are a >fool" remains unproven.

Hi, Dave!

True -- we have to rely on Bride for most of our information about that episode. For what it's worth, I believe it occurred in one form or another, but I also believe Bride became 'overexcited' in his retelling of the episode at the inquiries.

>It also sounds as if
>Phillips was not as angry as is made out, if he >took two minutes to reply.

I absolutely agree.

> I'd love to see the PV. Any chance of posting it >here?

I'm afraid I can't. I received special permission from the owners to reproduce the PV in the Commutator, but that permission didn't extend to further reproduction elsewhere.

All my best,

George

 

[John M. Feeney]

I've been missing all the fun here apparenty, while chasing down the "ghost" of Jack Thayer.

I'd definitely second Dave's motion there on the Frankfurt PV! I've been trying desperately to get my grubby little hands on all the wireless accounts I can locate. (Incidentally, Parks, I *think* you can purchase back issues of the Commutator without being a member. Is that true, George?)

Speaking of which, I now own a copy of "Signals of Disaster", and STILL don't seem to have access to all the messages. (For example, I haven't found the legendary "Looks like fish for breakfast, or vice versa" marconigram anywhere.)

George, you'd said above:

If your source for the wireless messages was the two inquiries (and the info that appears in their summaries), you haven't read all the messages.​

So tell me please, if you can -- or anyone else out there -- where the heck *can* I find all the messages? Is there any publication(s) or source(s) out there that -- singly or in combination -- reliably presents the totality of potentially relevant communications from all ships involved? It would make life ever so much easier.

Thanks very much!

Cheers!

 

[George Behe]

John wrote:

>(Incidentally, Parks, I *think*
>you can purchase back issues of the Commutator >without being a member. Is that true,
>George?)

Hi, John!

Yes, that's right.

>Speaking of which, I now own a copy of "Signals >of Disaster", and STILL don't seem to have
>access to all the messages. (For example, I >haven't found the legendary "Looks like fish for
>breakfast, or vice versa" marconigram anywhere.)

I think you'll look long and hard for that one, old chap; to the best of my knowledge, it never existed (except in Pellegrino's book, that is.)

>So tell me please, if you can -- or anyone else >out there -- where the heck *can* I find all the
>messages? Is there any publication(s) or >source(s) out there that -- singly or in >combination --
>reliably presents the totality of potentially >relevant communications from all ships involved?

The booklet "Loss of the Steamship 'Titanic'" (available from the THS -- or at least it used to be) contains a useful summary of 'official' messages that were exchanged between various vessels and the Titanic during the sinking. I believe the "Titanic Radio Webpage" contains a transcription of these messages. (I'm afraid I don't have the URL handy -- I'm not at home at the moment.)

All my best,

George

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, George:

Ah. So that Pellegrino assertion hasn't borne out, eh? I lost track of that conversation when it left a.h.o.t., and that's probably where I recall the wireless message from. (It was supposed to be in Olympic's "unabridged" PV, if I remember.) ;^)

The Titanic Radio Page I know of -- and a very good site it is! (But they too report: "1:50 AM Titanic says to Frankfurt 'You fool, stdbi and keep out' .") For those who want the link, it's: http://www2.dynamite.com.au/rmstitanic/

So the big question is: Do any of these sources -- the THS booklet, perhaps ? -- contain accurate transcriptions of *ALL* of the disaster-related communications? Judging from the sounds of it, I'd at least want your Frankfurt article as well. (What issue is it?) And are there other addenda, aside from the Inquiry PV's, you know of that would be necessary to finally complete the picture? For example, where could I locate a complete copy of Mount Temple's PV?

Note: Take your time. I'm in no hurry, and it can certainly wait, especially since you're at work. Thanks very much, George!

And a Very Happy New Year to all!

 

[Parks Stephenson]

George,

I agree through my own study with what you said in your last post. That still leaves unanswered questions, and like I said, I have yet to read an explanation that settles the exchange completely in my mind. However, I have not yet read your Commutator article, so maybe my doubts would be settled with a read of your complete argument.

As far as THS is concerned, I'm afraid that my style is not appreciated by the society's founders. You're right...not receiving the Commutator means that I miss out on a lot of research and forces me to re-invent the wheel on many occasions in order to find answers to my questions. Maybe you could use your influence with the Kamudas to allow a heretic into the club?

Parks

 

[George Behe]

Parks wrote:

>I agree through my own study with what you said >in your last post. That still leaves
>unanswered questions,

Hi, Parks!

Could you be more specific?

>As far as THS is concerned, I'm afraid that my >style is not appreciated by the society's
>founders.
>Maybe you could use your influence with the >Kamudas to allow a heretic into
>the club?

You can't be any more of a heretic than I was when my last book was published, but I'm still a THS member just like I've always been. I recommend that you join -- there's no point in your reinventing the wheel when air travel would get you there much faster.

All my best,

George

 

[Bill Wormstedt]

George's article was in the Fall & Winter 1990 issues of the Commutator.

 

[John M. Feeney]

Hi, Bill! Thanks. (Although -- ouch -- that would make it $40 for two back issues.)

George: Were you referring to the 7C's printing of the British Report above? That was the only "Loss of the Steamship Titanic" I could locate in the THS Catalogue (PDF) or online. And unless there's a marked difference, the wireless summary from that is available online at the Titanic Inquiry Project.

Different booklet?

 

[Parks Stephenson]

George,

Sorry for my tardy reply, but I allowed real life to get in the way of participating on this list.

This is one thing I dislike about virtual debates...it takes us days to go through what would only take a few minutes in a face-to-face exchange. When I said "unanswered questions," I can see where that could be received differently than what I intended. In the matter of the Frankfurt, I do not have unanswered questions for you, I have unanswered questions for myself. It's not that I'm ready to confidently discard this theory or that...it's simply that I have yet to read an explanation for the reasons behind Phillips' dismissal of DFT with which I feel totally comfortable.

Why is that? Maybe it's my experience...I have been involved in a number of Search and Rescue missions, one of which I was the guy in trouble, asking for help. I am not going to say that because of that, I can give you specifics about Phillips' state of mind or the reasons for his actions...only Phillips can give us that. But there's just something intangible that doesn't sound right about the explanations, and that's about as far as I can take it at the moment. I'm not looking for conspiracy - I generally disdain conspiracy theories and will only accept them if they can be fully proven - but I am keeping my mind open to the possibility that Bride's account of the incident may not provide us with everything we need to understand why the Frankfurt was dismissed.

I haven't read your article in the Commutator...maybe your complete argument will sound right to me. When I get around to attempting a conclusion on this aspect of Titanic history, I will ensure that I read your article before I do so. Maybe the matter is simple and the answer has always been there in full view, maybe it's complex with obscured motivations at work...I don't know. I wish I did have more specifics with which to better pick your brain.

Parks