What Would You Say

Well, the point was simply that the Californian was in a better position to help than any other ship at sea at the time. However long it would have taken them to get there, it still would have been less. And whatever theories may be in existence, I'm sure the semantics would have been worked out at the time. Having her get there at any point before Titanic went under would have, at the very least, helped a great deal.
 
April, that much will forever be a matter of extremely fractuous and contentious debate. You might want to check out the links I provided so you can benefit from some of the insights of the people who have researched the problems.

The bottom line is that nobody knows with 100% certainty what the Californian was in a position to do. This is not to say that some sort of attempt shouldn't have been made. Any such would have been worthy, noble, would have spared Captain Lord quite a bit of public censure, and if Captain Lord's critics are correct, would have saved some lives. Perhaps not many, but some.

Having said this, the problem is not semantics, but logistics. Had Captain Lord taken decisive action when informed of the rockets and assuming the Californian was a modest 10 to 12 miles away, she still would have taken around an hour to make the transit to the site of the sinking and this would make for an arrival time of on or about 2am local time. This assumes that they don't have to dodge icebergs along the way. We have no way of knowing how many lurked unseen in the dark. A collision with even one would have been sufficient to send the Californain plunging to the bottom.

With the Titanic on the point of going under, simply pulling up alongside is out of the question. In point of fact, it would have been suicidal. There's simply no way that everyone could have been transfered befor the ship went under and it's unlikly that the Californian would have survived the consequences of being in the way when the Titanic broke up.

That means they have to take to the boats to do the job and twenty minutes to do the work befor the Titanic founders. The Californian had six boats aboard and few trained seamen who could man the boats, the davits, and still man up essential watches. This means that boats would have to be despatched with scratch crews of seamen and non-seamen and hopefully fish as many swimmers out of the water as they could befor they froze to death.

Anyway you look at it, it's not as simple as some might suppose.
 
The other thing about Californian sending her boats to pick up swimmers is that few would be willing to man them - for the same reason that Titanic's survivors didn't want to go back.

Phillips to bridge - Advisory: Californian says she is stopped and surrounded by ice. She sounds very close by.
 
I was under the impression that we were all asked for our "opinions" here, but apparantly deconstructing mine alone is group fun. I don't ask that anyone agrees with me, but I do ask that my opinion please be respected for what it is. Opinion. Please don't dismiss me out of hand, and please don't assume me ignorant merely because you disagree. I have just as many reasons for my feelings as you have for yours. And I promise you there isn't a soul alive, no matter how much knowledge they have, who can claim to know with certainty what the outcome would have been had things happened differently. That's why we have questions like this one that are entirely opinion. To explore the coulda shoulda wouldas of the event. But not to worry, you won't be bothered by my opinions again. Thanks for a great site, though.
 
April, I sort of agree with you about the Californian's lack of effort. However, I recently checked out the book Titanic As Told By It's Survivors at our local library. In one section one of the survivors writes about how the Carpathia had to dodge icebergs and ice floes that were all around the sight of the sinking. Also, that was during daylight hours.

True, the Californian should have made more of an effort, however; the ship may have been in some danger making that effort.

Barbara
 
April, I wish you would stay. All the different "voices" is what keeps this site alive. Nobody is in here to degrade anyone for their opinions or statements.

Michael's statement (if that is the one you are referring to) doesn't sound deconstructive at all. That's not his style as you can see by reading any of his other posts. I don't see where anyone is accusing you of being ignorant because they disagree. You're not coming across as ignorant at all. That is why it is important not to "assume" someone means something because of the way things are worded. In one thread (can't remember which) I mentioned that we need to remember that all we have to go on is what we are reading...we can't hear a person's tone or see facial expressions like we do when we speak in person. If you have concerns about what someone means, just ask them. That's the only way things are going to get cleared up.

No one's goal is to tear anyone else apart. So please reconsider. People are good in here and always very willing to help and share knowledge. Stick around awhile and you will see. I can tell you that my first post got a few remarks that I initially thought were "attacks" (for lack of a better word) but then I realized that they weren't. People were just adding to my posts their thoughts, ideas, opinions and knowledge.

It really is a nice place. It would be pretty boring if everyone agreed on everything anyway. And it can be funny in here. Personally, I've learned a lot myself (don't quiz me though...I probably won't remember everything). Anyway, I do hope you stay.
 
I have wonder if there was much ice between between the ships. Californian's crew stated they could see the whole sinking process, right to the point that Titanic "had a big side out of the water." If the observers on the bridge of Californian were 30 feet above the water (an educated guess), any ice capable of harming their vessel would have "stuck up" into the line of sight. No one from Californian mentioned ice impeding their view. It should be added that even running "flat out," Californian's crew would be able to see and dodge any ice in their path, because her top speed was about that of a leisurely bicycle ride.
 
Ah ha. I think I figured out where things got lost in the translation here. I think people may have thought I was casting blame on the Californian for not helping, and that simply isn't so. I find their proximity infuriating considering the catastrophe . . . but it was merely a comedy of errors that kept them from knowing what was really going on. It wasn't any one person's fault or wrongdoing. And if I sounded as though I was blaming them, I am sorry. I don't feel that way about it at all. I just can't help but think a few things would have gone very differently had they been aware of what was happening to Titanic. That was what I was trying to convey and I apologize for any confusion. I honestly wasn't trying to start a fight, I swear! hehehe
 
There are many people who think Stanley Lord was guilty of criminal negligence for not finding out why a stationary vessel was firing rockets in the middle of the night, whether it was Titanic, Samson, or Flying Dutchman.

And I am one of them.

I also think Titanic's officers were criminally negligent in not setting a fire on deck (per the maritime convention) to signal their situation more emphatically.
 
Tom,
I'm no sailor, and with all due respect, setting a large signal fire on deck seems dangerous and prone to provoke a shipwide panic.

It surprises me that doing such a thing is actually recommended in maritime convention.

Besides, how could the light of a fire actually outshine all the blazing electric lights normally seen on a liner at night? Unless it was of tremendous size and intensity. Could a fire of that size even have been constructed and managed by the crew?

I suppose they could have searched around and found some type of explosive and detonated it on the top deck of the bow. The flash, report and mushroom cloud perhaps would have been witnessed by the watch officers on Californian and caused them some alarm. Enough to investigate further.

Going back to the larger argument though, even if they had been more alarmed by Titanic that night, it seems doubtful to me that they could have, or even should have, attempted any serious type of rescue.

For that matter, what type of rescue could Carpathia have mounted if they had arrived before Titanic went under? All they really did was pick up those boats already in the water. That's about all California could have done.

But I see your point Tom. It brings up the question of why didn't Titanic's crew, (i.e. Smith), try more radical ways to save lives. Like roping together chairs, furniture or luggage to make large floating rafts? Or why not have the lifeboats all tie up together near the ship and string anything that would float around them, again in attempt to make a raft. Or flash the ship's main lights all together as a morse signal.

And perhaps such ideas were even discussed that night. Just overruled or dismissed as impossible. Not enough men, not enough time, or whatever. We'll never know. But I can't imagine holding the officers criminally negligent for not lighting a fire on deck. That seems extreme to me.

Most respectfully,
Yuri
 
The senior officers knew the score. A thousand people were going to freeze to death no matter what was done, and a small, well controlled flame on the compass platform (for example) would have been no scarier than anything else (lifeboats, rockets) that was going on.

The flame would have stood out on the deck, which was really quite dark. Daisy Spedden testified that she had trouble seeing well enough to keep her footing.

A rescue, in all probability, wouldn't have saved more than a hundred or two. But anything would have been better than nothing.
 
>>I was under the impression that we were all asked for our "opinions" here, but apparantly deconstructing mine alone is group fun. I don't ask that anyone agrees with me, but I do ask that my opinion please be respected for what it is. Opinion.<<

April, please don't confuse rebuttal or point vs. counterpoint for lack of respect. Debate means that the discussion is two way where various viewpoints are discussed and compared. What you were dealing with was not disrespect, but additional views which you may not have considered befor.

Debate also means being challanged, and we all deal with that. Myself included. You will too. Don't be afraid of it. Think of it as an opportunity to learn. It's worked for me for years.

For the record...I've been on both sides in this issue. I've been pro-Lord, I've been anti-Lord and nowadays I just don't care about taking "sides." Lords critics and champions alike have the ground covered and scarcely need my help. I'm interested in knowing what, how, and why things went wrong as they did in as objective and dispassionate a fashion as possible.

Were they within the 10-12 miles that Dave Gittins worked out on his own and published in his article?

Probably so.

Does that mean that's what's obvious to us now should have been just as obvious to them at the time?

I wouldn't bet money on that.

Should they have acted more pro-actively anyway?

I don't think anybody in either camp would argue that point. Regardless of the conditions and the distance of seperation, taking firmer steps to find out what was going on and at least trying to get to the Titanic would have spared Captain Lord a lot of grief and might have saved lives.

Would they have made the sort of difference that some think she might have?

Well now, that's a good question. I wouldn't bet money on that either. The reasons for this I've already stated. In order to effect a transfer from one ship to another, they would have had to risk boat operations. This is a very dangerous, time consuming and labour intensive endevour under the best of conditions and would have taken hours to accomplish.

They didn't have hours. They had minutes.

That was my whole point.

As to the rest that's been kicked around here, all I can say is that your results may vary...wildly...and probably will..
 
And I will add to what Michael just said about the time frame: if the current speculation that the sinking actually took twenty minutes less than previously assumed, then the best-case scenario worsens dramatically. Even if Californian did get over to the scene as soon as possible, there would have been few in the water still alive. The number saved might be reduced from hundreds to dozens.
 
Alex, I like your comment that you would stay with her, I have always said that if i could go back in time and know then what i know now I would stay with the ship.
Mandi
 
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