Why did Mrs Allison panic?

[Arun Vajpey]

This thread has taken bit of a detour from the OP of the reason why Bess Allison 'panicked' and got off Lifeboat #6 dragging poor Loraine with her, an action that ultimately led to both their deaths.

The reason I mentioned alcohol was because earlier in this thread an irresponsible poster theorized that the Allison family head Hudson was inebriated to the extent that he could not be woken up and when his wife Bess became anxious, nurse Alice Cleaver 'fed' the lady 'booze' to settle her before 'bolting' with baby Trevor. The only 'evidence' that the poster had to offer was that he tends to go over the limit while on a cruise!

I just wanted to show that there is absolutely no evidence that alcohol was in any way involved with the Allison family tragedy, which was due more to indecision, delays and poor communication between the main couple. From what Alice Cleaver said, both Hudson and Bess Allison knew that she had taken charge of baby Trevor Allison, whose care was her designated responsibility anyway. Furthermore, Bess and Loraine were in a lifeboat (#6) much earlier than Trevor and Alice because the latter waited to alert her colleagues in Second Class before boarding a boat (Lifeboat #11). Finally, statements from Major Peuchen and Colonel Gracie make it clear that Bess Allison got out of Lifeboat #6 with Loraine because her husband was not gong to be allowed in, which implies that the media supposition that the couple were looking for their baby son was wrong. Bess would never have got into a lifeboat in the first place unless she knew that Trevor was safe, which he was.

 

[RonJF2]

It is this kind of nonsense that triggers stories about who was drunk that night and so was responsible for the deaths of themselves, their family or even the entire ship. People accused of being inebriated have included Murdoch, Hudson Allison, Charles Joughin, Paddy Dillon and God knows who else. With Murdoch, the accusation was nothing short of blasphemy of course, but even with the others, there is no evidence that they were in any way incapacitated. And how someone can generalize their own tendency to "over indulge" while at sea to everyone else is beyond me.

Specifically with Hudson Allison, the poster makes a blanket statement that he had "a lot to drink" and said "several times" that he did not want to be woken up. The poster also claims that Alice Cleaver gave Bess Allison booze to calm her down - as if he was a fly on the wall monitoring all that. Anyone can see that such 'assertions' amount to little more than speculative nonsense. Hudson Allison was a devout Methodist, Sunday School Teacher, occasional Lay Preacher and a very responsible family man travelling with his wife and 2 small children. Somehow, I cannot see such a man being incapacitated with drink on a Sunday to the point that he could not be woken up.

From what Alice Cleaver and even Sarah Daniels said, Hudson was at first somewhat reluctant to believe that the Titanic was in any danger, something that applied to a lot of passengers and even crew members in the early stages of the sinking. But on Alice's urgng, he did go out to investigate and by then the nervous Bess Allison might have been very anxious considering the situation. But panicky or otherwise, Bess did take Loraine and get to the boat deck and according to Major Peuchen was actually sitting inside Lifeboat #6 before leaving it just before lowering when she realized that her husband would not be allowed too. Peuchen was also very clear in his statements that the panicking Bess Allison was searching for her husband Hudson and never said anything about her being worried about Alice and Tervor; the press made that up.

Thanks Arun. Your words have completely changed my mind on everything. As for Hudson being a devout Methodist, that's a great point. I have never heard of a Christian who actually went against Christian teachings. Thank you clearing this up and I apologize for my opinion. I'm so sorry.

 

[RonJF2]

White it is possible that Hudson Allison had some wine with dinner, there is absolutely no survivor statement from either Alice Cleaver or Sarah Daniels that he was inebriated. The Allisons were devout Methodists - they taught Sunday school, Bible Classes, and Hudson often served as a lay preacher. That and travelling with a wife and 2 small children, I doubt very much if he would have been drunk.

It's all baseless, nonsensical accusation.


Alice Cleaver did nothing of the kind. After collecting baby Trevor - for whom she had specific responsibility - she went down to her colleagues in Second Class and woke up the cook Amelia Brown, who appears to have remained with Alice thereafter. Despite her anxiety, Colonel Gracie and Major Peuchen mentioned seeing Bess Allison get into Lifeboat #6 with Loraine, only to get out again; likewise, Sarah Daniles was very likely rescued on Lifeboat #8; both those lifeboats were on the water just after 1:10am. Alice Cleaver, Trevor Allison and Amelia Brown on the other hand, only managed to reach Lifeboat #11, which was launched around 01:30am. That's clear evidence that Alice Cleaver neither "bolted" or left anyone in confusion.


Thanks for that Seumas. May I ask where and when Don Lynch acknowledged his mistake about Alice Cleaver? One of my grouses against him is that he had not done so, not even when Alice's descendants contact him to point out his error. But if he did so since then, I'll be one of those pleased.

And what about Judith Geller? She has posted even more speculative and ridiculous nonsense about Alice Cleaver in her book Women And Children First. In my opinion Geller has more reason to apologize.

Once again I'm so sorry for my opinion. You are right yet again.

 

[RonJF2]

This thread has taken bit of a detour from the OP of the reason why Bess Allison 'panicked' and got off Lifeboat #6 dragging poor Loraine with her, an action that ultimately led to both their deaths.

The reason I mentioned alcohol was because earlier in this thread an irresponsible poster theorized that the Allison family head Hudson was inebriated to the extent that he could not be woken up and when his wife Bess became anxious, nurse Alice Cleaver 'fed' the lady 'booze' to settle her before 'bolting' with baby Trevor. The only 'evidence' that the poster had to offer was that he tends to go over the limit while on a cruise!

I just wanted to show that there is absolutely no evidence that alcohol was in any way involved with the Allison family tragedy, which was due more to indecision, delays and poor communication between the main couple. From what Alice Cleaver said, both Hudson and Bess Allison knew that she had taken charge of baby Trevor Allison, whose care was her designated responsibility anyway. Furthermore, Bess and Loraine were in a lifeboat (#6) much earlier than Trevor and Alice because the latter waited to alert her colleagues in Second Class before boarding a boat (Lifeboat #11). Finally, statements from Major Peuchen and Colonel Gracie make it clear that Bess Allison got out of Lifeboat #6 with Loraine because her husband was not gong to be allowed in, which implies that the media supposition that the couple were looking for their baby son was wrong. Bess would never have got into a lifeboat in the first place unless she knew that Trevor was safe, which he was.

I said I was so sorry. Please forgive me. You are the Allison expert. I will try to do better.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I said I was so sorry. Please forgive me. You are the Allison expert. I will try to do better.

Please do not aplologize. There is no need. We all have our opinions and I was criticizing the idea, not the person behind it.

Also, I confess it's also my fault. I get hot and bothered about any negative comment about poor Alice Catherine Cleaver, who had a squeaky clean past and was an experienced nanny despite her age. In a LOT of books, articles and forum posts, she is accused of having been a "child killer" etc, despite the fact that the women with that issue was a totally unrelated one called Catherine Mary Cleaver.

And while I have done some research into the Allisons, I am far from being an expert.

 

[RonJF2]

Thank you Arun.

 

[Thames LWT]

Bess cared more about her husband rather than the daughter she gave birth to... not a good look

 

[RonJF2]

Careful Thames... you about to get lit up by posters lol

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Bess cared more about her husband rather than the daughter she gave birth to

It's not as simple as that. Bess cared about both of them but was panicking and not thinking clearly. Going by witness accounts Bess and Loraine Allison had got into Lifeboat #6 and since it was far from full, Bess might have expected Hudson to follow. But when she realized that men were not being allowed in, she panicked and got out of the lifeboat, dragging Loraine with her. Naturally, Bess could not be expected to leave a child not yet 3 years old without any familiar adult.

I suspect that Hudson tried to persuade his wife to get back into the lifeboat with the child or at least another boat, which she very likely refused to do. Since Captain Smith and Lightoller were not allowing men into lifeboats on the port side, the Allisons must have wrongly assumed that the same protocol was prevalent on the starboard side as well. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late.

 

[RonJF2]

It's not as simple as that. Bess cared about both of them but was panicking and not thinking clearly. Going by witness accounts Bess and Loraine Allison had got into Lifeboat #6 and since it was far from full, Bess might have expected Hudson to follow. But when she realized that men were not being allowed in, she panicked and got out of the lifeboat, dragging Loraine with her. Naturally, Bess could not be expected to leave a child not yet 3 years old without any familiar adult.

I suspect that Hudson tried to persuade his wife to get back into the lifeboat with the child or at least another boat, which she very likely refusd to do. Since Captain Smith and Lightoller were not allowing men into lifeboats on the port side, the Allisons must have wrongly assumed that the same protocol was prevalent on the starboard side as well. By the time they realized what was happening, it was too late.

Naturally, Bess could not be expected to leave a child not yet 3 years old without any familiar adult.

My only response to that is that Michel Navratil left his two young children into a lifeboat with people he didn't know. Granted circumstances were different and families are different but it's still the same concept.

 

[RonJF2]

Since Captain Smith and Lightoller were not allowing men into lifeboats on the port side I've also wondered if Captain Smith knew Murdoch's policy on the starboard side and if he did why didn't he stop it from happening if he was so strict on the port side with "women and children first". I've also wondered why both Captain Smith and Chief Officer Wilde stayed on the port side (except for Wilde with collapsible C) with Lightoller while they pretty much gave Murdoch free reign on the starboard side. Is it because they trusted Murdoch more than Lightoller? Just a couple of many questions I have that we will probably never know answers to which makes this the "unsinkable subject" as Walter Lord called it.

 

[Thomas Krom]

My only response to that is that Michel Navratil left his two young children into a lifeboat with people he didn't know. Granted circumstances were different and families are different but it's still the same concept.

I'd disagree it's the same concept as there's one big differences between the two cases, lifeboat number 6, depending on which timeline you believe in, was either the first lifeboat (lowered at about 12:55) or the second one (there's conflicted evidence which lifeboat was lowered first, 8 or 6) while Michel Narvatil placed his two kids in collapsible Engelhardt lifeboat D, which was lowered at 2:05. With the forward well deck awash and the forecastle nearly under along with an alarm list at this point, Narvatil likely realized that if he didn't put his two sons in a lifeboat they would die on the ship with him, which considering the fact he kidnapped them would mean he would be at fault more in one way. When the first lifeboats on either sides were lowered people were hesitant to leave a warm, well lit and seemingly stable ship but near the end most of those luxuries were fading.

I've also wondered if Captain Smith knew Murdoch's policy on the starboard side and if he did why didn't he stop it from happening if he was so strict on the port side with "women and children first". I've also wondered why both Captain Smith and Chief Officer Wilde stayed on the port side (except for Wilde with collapsible C) with Lightoller while they pretty much gave Murdoch free reign on the starboard side. Is it because they trusted Murdoch more than Lightoller? Just a couple of many questions I have that we will probably never know answers to which makes this the "unsinkable subject" as Walter Lord called it.

If I were to speculate it could be the same reason why David Blair was assigned to the RMS Majestic. Wilde, unlike Lightoller, had months of experience with the Olympic and Titanics davits, while Lightoller only had a few weeks experience along with the rest of the deck crew as only 23 of the 66 deck crewmembers served on the RMS Olympic before. But that's my two cents on it and is purely speculative.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I've also wondered if Captain Smith knew Murdoch's policy on the starboard side and if he did why didn't he stop it from happening if he was so strict on the port side with "women and children first"

First of all, the protocol of the day was "Women and Children First" which was actually enforced only on the starboard side. That meant that they first filled lifeboats with all available women and children willing to board and only then, if there was room, allowed men to board. On the port side however, they enforced the "Women and children only" policy and men were not allowed even if there were spaces.

I think Captain Smith did realize at some stage that Murdoch was allowing men on the starboard side but decided not to interfere. The reasons are complex IMO and we'll perhaps never know them fully. I started another thread a few years ago asking who among Captain Smith, Wilde and Lightoller started the 'no men other than essential crew at any cost' and there probably is no direct answer. One of them started it as "women and children only" and the other two went with it. On the startboard side, Murdoch appeared to have full charge and better organized and so Smith, assuming that he found out at some stage, decided not to interfere.

 

[RonJF2]

It's such an interesting topic. I've often wondered what would have happened if Captain Smith would have a general meeting of all his officers a la "A Night to Remember" and basically said "We are in danger, Mr. Andrews has said we have about an hour to an hour in half before she founders. And our lifeboat policy is _______________" And clearly state what he wanted done and not left things open to interpretation. Colonel Gracie reported that 6th Officer Moody on A deck portside made a line and stated "no men beyond this line", then later Moody went to the starboard side with Murdoch and allowed men in. I've also wondered why Smith didn't clearly tell his officers all at once that the ship was sinking. Lightoller stated he didn't know the ship was sinking until rather late. Was Smith just too busy to tell them? Did he think they would panic? I understand not telling passengers, although he allegedly told Astor and John B. Thayer the ship was sinking, but surely Smith trusted his officers. Perhaps if they knew the real danger they would have "taken more chances" with loading as Lightoller stated at the inquiry.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I've often wondered what would have happened if Captain Smith would have a general meeting of all his officers a la "A Night to Remember" and basically said "We are in danger, Mr. Andrews has said we have about an hour to an hour in half before she founders. And our lifeboat policy is _______________"

It is an interesting possibility and once the decision was taken to load lifeboats with women and children, it would have taken only a few minutes for that kind of briefing. One of the main reasons that it did not happen is probably because the policy (rather than a protocol) of the day was already "women and children first" and Captain Smith expected that his officers and indeed himself would follow that without question. In the stress of the moment, he very probably did not consider the differences in practical interpretation or difficulties with enforcement of the policy. It was the first time even Smith was facing such a situation and he might have assumed that everyone would simply co-operate and follow the system; he might not have considered how the mood on board would change with passing time as the inevitability of the situation became more and more obvious to all concerned.

There is also the fact that the off duty officers did not appear on the bridge all at the same time and when they did, Smith was already too busy with damage assessment and liaising with Thomas Andrews. From Lightoller's testimony, it appears like Smith largely remained on the port side after the decision to load lifeboats with passengers was taken and orders given; even there, he appeared to be a part of rather than in complete charge of the evacuation process. That is what makes me believe that Captain Smith simply let his senior officers - Wilde and Lightoller on the port side and Murdoch on the starboard side - follow the lifeboat protocol as they interpreted it. Odd as it may seem, there is no other explanation of the manner in which events unfolded that night.

Colonel Gracie reported that 6th Officer Moody on A deck portside made a line and stated "no men beyond this line", then later Moody went to the starboard side with Murdoch and allowed men in

While that might be true, I have my doubts. The good Colonel was not averse to a touch of melodrama in giving his "observations", like his book about the disaster suggested. Furthermore, while Moody was briefly involved with preparing starboard lifeboats early on, his supervisory work with actual loading and lowering them really started with the port side aft lifeboats. He was alone there at first while the starboard forward lifeboats were being launched, and then Lowe joined him; it looks like after the brief "firearms meeting" Lightoller and Wilde also came over. With Wilde supervising overall, it was Moody who loaded and launched Lifeboat #16 and after a brief exchange with Lowe about which one of them was taking charge of Lifeboat #14, Moody crossed to the starboard side to help Murdoch. By then, Murdoch had already launched Lifeboats #7, #5, #3 #1 and had almost finished with #9 and so his policy of "women and children first but men allowed if there was room" was well and truly in place.

You must also remember that 5/O Lowe was with Murdoch through the launching of all four forward starboard lifeboats and knew very well what policy his senior colleague was following. And yet, when he arrived on the port side to work with Moody, Lowe appears to have been happy to enforce the "women and children only" policy there without question even before Wilde and Lightoller came over.