Why did Titanic sink faster when her Boat Deck began to flood?

[Cam Houseman]

Of course, the increasing forward trim would also cause further overtopping and equilibration of the flooding water, depending on the height of the bulkheads, available open spaces etc.

I heard that Lifeboat 2 had issues rowing away, and that was because the Well Deck and Forecastle was going under at the time. is that true?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I heard that Lifeboat 2 had issues rowing away, and that was because the Well Deck and Forecastle was going under at the time. is that true?

As far as I can recall, the main reason Boxhall had difficulties in rowing away on Lifeboat 2 is the lack of enough trained seamen to help. He only had Able Seaman Frank Osman to help with rowing away; John Ellis and James Johnstone were the only other crew members in the boat but they were from the victualling department and perhaps not as well trained as Boxhall and Osman about rowing a lifeboat. Having said that Johnstone had been at sea for almost 25 years and would have been familiar with such things. Also, Johnstone appears to have known Bo'sun Alfred Nichols well since the latter gave him the often mentioned 'star tip' while Johnstone was working on Lifeboat 2. If true, that conversation would have been around 01:30 am, long after Lightoller lost sight of Nichols (but that's another story)

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I heard that Lifeboat 2 had issues rowing away, and that was because the Well Deck and Forecastle was going under at the time. is that true?

Also, Lifeboat 2 was lowered at 01:45 am and most accounts indicate that the forecastle did not start to go under till 10 or 12 minutes later?

 

[Mike Spooner]

Have you considerd the following, Sam?

Memorandum submitted to the British Wreck Commissioner on Day 27
"We have considered by approximate methods the flooding of the 'Mauretania' in the event of an accident similar to that met with by the 'Titanic.' We have assumed the watertight doors and hatches to be closed and similar deductions to those made in the calculations for the 'Titanic.' From the calculations made, taking the vessel as damaged from the stem to the afterend of the forward boiler room (corresponding nearly - but not quite - to the length from the stem to the afterend of the No. 5 boiler room in the 'Titanic'.) the vessel would remain afloat with a considerable list, say 15 deg. to 20 deg., which, no doubt, could be slowly reduced by carefully flooding some after spaces on the opposite side. With the data available we do not think we can satisfactorily discuss flooding corresponding to the damage extending into No. 4 boiler room in the 'Titanic.'

- (Signed.), Edward Wilde, W.; L.eonard Peskett."

Both these lads were highly qualified Naval Architects with access to information we do not. Regaring the statement, Wilding said:
.The calculations show that the vessel would have a considerable list, and in order that the water should not rise above the top of the bulkhead, we had to assume the bunkers flooded on the other side.
As fa as I can see, the differing permeability of the flooded spaces must have indicated a lower volume of inundation than the maximum pumping capabilities of Titanic.

Jim, You raise an interesting point what was said at the inquiry by two top designers Edward Wilding and Leonard Peskett.
I notice only the Mauretania was mention and not Lusitania. This discussion went on for years if the Mauretania/ Lusitania would fare any better than Titanic did. Yet what I can see no final conclusion answer was said yes or no! The calculation figures they base on was never given out for others to looked into either. Yet we have figures for Titanic bilge pumps capacity at 1,700 tons per hour. Two years later in 1914 we have a new ship almost the same size to Titanic the RMS Aquitania. Yet we have a figure for bilge pumps. By using the ash expellers as well the bilge pumps could shift 4,500 tons of water per hour! This now open the question if the Aquitania was built at the same shipyard as Lusitania John Brown. Could Lusitania used there ash pots as well to? Then is the question could of Titanic done the same by using her ash pots to?

 

[Cam Houseman]

Also, Lifeboat 2 was lowered at 01:45 am and most accounts indicate that the forecastle did not start to go under till 10 or 12 minutes later?

Ok maybe it was Lifeboat 4, I can't remember. Thank you Arun

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Ok maybe it was Lifeboat 4, I can't remember. Thank you Arun

Maybe, but Lifeboat 4 was lowered somewhere between 01:50 am and 01:55 am and I think the bow was still just above the surface at that time. But water might have started to flow onto the forward well deck.

But by the time the next port lifeboat, Collapsible D, was launched at 02:05 am, the bow was definitely well underwater and so both the forecastle and forward well deck were completely awash.

 

[Jim Currie]

so, could Titanic sink faster when areas like the Well Deck was flooding? Because since (depending who’s you ask..) Titanic’s Going down by the head slant was very small. The water could have flooded down the Stairs, and Flooded the Third Class open space, and if the slant forwards, before the List to Port happened, was minimal, the Water maybe didn’t come up the stairs to the Third Class Open Space

And, the water could have flowed down the stairs which lead to the Fireman’s Spiral Stairs, and increasing the sinking rate as the Number 1 Cargo Hatch had a huge hole that led down into the forward Cargo hold.

View attachment 74501

As I said, Cam, water finds its own level. There wer e 2 spiral starcase acessess, bot were flooded from the very beginning.
Water was seen flowing from the starboard side at the base o9f the starboard one, across to the port side at the base of the port one. That was shortly after the boiler room lights went out.

Jim, You raise an interesting point what was said at the inquiry by two top designers Edward Wilding and Leonard Peskett.
I notice only the Mauretania was mention and not Lusitania. This discussion went on for years if the Mauretania/ Lusitania would fare any better than Titanic did. Yet what I can see no final conclusion answer was said yes or no! The calculation figures they base on was never given out for others to looked into either. Yet we have figures for Titanic bilge pumps capacity at 1,700 tons per hour. Two years later in 1914 we have a new ship almost the same size to Titanic the RMS Aquitania. Yet we have a figure for bilge pumps. By using the ash expellers as well the bilge pumps could shift 4,500 tons of water per hour! This now open the question if the Aquitania was built at the same shipyard as Lusitania John Brown. Could Lusitania used there ash pots as well to? Then is the question could of Titanic done the same by using her ash pots to?

Wilding and Peskett would attempt to simulate the evidence, Mike. They would collect all known evidence of the down-flooding and apply it the Mauretania. They would use the exact same maximum pumping capabilities as had the Titanic. Not only that, but they would have run a number of scenarios.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Maybe, but Lifeboat 4 was lowered somewhere between 01:50 am and 01:55 am and I think the bow was still just above the surface at that time. But water might have started to flow onto the forward well deck.

But by the time the next port lifeboat, Collapsible D, was launched at 02:05 am, the bow was definitely well underwater and so both the forecastle and forward well deck were completely awash.

So that means within, what, 10 minutes, 1:55-2:05, the Well Deck and Forecastle flooded. That seems pretty fast to me.

 

[Steven Christian]

Hi Jim/Sam, I can see the figures for the bilge pumps capacity for Titanic, but cannot find them for Lusitania/Mauritania.
Do you know what the figures where?

Hi Mike. I was poking around and ran across this from the 1914 edition of the International Marine Engineering magazine. Its for the Aquatania but maybe they had a similar setup on the Lusitania. From what I gathered seems Cunard built their ships with more damage control features than others for possible wartime service. Maybe they knew what was coming. Although I guess it didn't help Lusitania much...probably didn't even have enough time to start pumps and such. Anyway might give you a clue in your search.
"Each boiler room had seven ash expellers with pump capacity of approximately 4,500 tons per hour that could also be used as emergency bilge pumps."

​

 

[Arun Vajpey]

So that means within, what, 10 minutes, 1:55-2:05, the Well Deck and Forecastle flooded. That seems pretty fast to me.

Yes, the rate of flooding increased dramatically just after 02:00 pm or so. I am not sure how much of that had to do with open portholes and such getting submerged as the bow dipped further, but it must have been a factor. Also, once the bow went under, the forward part of the ship lost its buoyancy while at the same time, there was increasing volume of water above it pressing down. That in turn would have resulted in faster overtopping of bulkheads with the water flowing into the next compartment aft and so on.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Yes, the rate of flooding increased dramatically just after 02:00 pm or so. I am not sure how much of that had to do with open portholes and such getting submerged as the bow dipped further, but it must have been a factor. Also, once the bow went under, the forward part of the ship lost its buoyancy while at the same time, there was increasing volume of water above it pressing down. That in turn would have resulted in faster overtopping of bulkheads with the water flowing into the next compartment aft and so on.

Hi Arun, Jim.
What about the open Watertight doors? Weren't the WTDs open aft of the No. 4 Boiler room? Could this be another possible answer?

Side question, how did the water come up through the floor plates, anyhow? (is there a thread on this?)

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Side question, how did the water come up through the floor plates, anyhow? (is there a thread on this?)

Better still, there is an excellent explanatory article by Sam Halpern called Where did that water come from?. It explains the likely mechanism of flooding of BR4 through the stokehold plates.

The article is on ET here.

 

[Cam Houseman]

Maybe, but Lifeboat 4 was lowered somewhere between 01:50 am and 01:55 am and I think the bow was still just above the surface at that time. But water might have started to flow onto the forward well deck.

But by the time the next port lifeboat, Collapsible D, was launched at 02:05 am, the bow was definitely well underwater and so both the forecastle and forward well deck were completely awash.

do you have Testimony for this statement?

 

[Keith H]

Jim, instead of speaking in riddles, do you mind explaining that comment? I always assumed that the port list occurred because there were more open spaces on the port side of the ship, including 'Scotland Road'. I was under the impression that as flooding water started equilibrating in various spaces, it filled the portside ones as well and the increased weight of the water on that side of the ship therefore contributed to the eventual port list.

Even though 'Scotland Road' had a manually operated WTD at its aft end, the space must have flooded at some stage during the sinking?

One factor to look at is the number of stair wells in the forward compartments most of which are on the port side leading down from E deck and how they would contributed to water flow into compartments as Titanic settled .it would need a bit of working out as not all compartments filled up at the same rate.
One stairwell on the portside of Scotland road in the stewards lavatory opposite boiler room six leads down to the linen room in the next watertight compartment and eventually down to boiler room five via the fan rooms , this stair well is certainly a path for the water to start spilling over and flooding the next compartment as the water makes its way up E deck closely followed by the access door to boiler room five further up Scotland road as the water continued to advance along it.

 

[Keith H]

As the water advanced further up E deck it would start pouring down the Grand staircase into water tight compartment seven where the Turkish baths are ,and next to the Turkish baths are two fan rooms that I think would give the water access to boiler room four .
Officer Lightoller states how he was sucked against a ventilator grill as the ship sank so one wonders how much flooding had progressed below decks towards the final plunge , certainly as the boat deck went under water would start pouring down the fiddleys down to the boiler rooms below and with the funnels collapsing then water would pour down into the boilers and out through the fire box's into the boiler rooms the force and weight of water I would imagine destroying the boiler uptakes in the process,
i think this is how the sinking accelerated ..