Amateur radio heard SOS in Welsh town 2,000 miles away

[Steven Christian]

Thank you for the reminder Steven...we are two people separated by a common language.

I don't know if that's the case. It's why I said maybe. But yes there are a lots of words that have different meanings in the 2 countries. Especially when it comes to slang words.

 

[Gordon Mooneyhan]

I don't know if that's the case. It's why I said maybe. But yes there are a lots of words that have different meanings in the 2 countries. Especially when it comes to slang words.

Yes. In South Carolina, the state dance is the Shag, which had a totally different meaning in the UK.

 

[Steven Christian]

Yes. In South Carolina, the state dance is the Shag, which had a totally different meaning in the UK.

Yes. that's a mild one. I know of others I won't repeat....
But back to the time of Titanic...I wonder if that was ever a problem between radio operators. Using words that had different meanings to them.

 

[Gordon Mooneyhan]

I don't know. I remember reading that Bride complained about the US Navy operators not being proficient in International Morse Code. I don't know of any other problems that might have occurred.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I would assume that messages with tips were handled before messages without tips.

I would understand and even appreciate that as far as that practice was restricted to how commercial traffic was handled within itself. But whether the individual operators received any incentives for handling passenger messages or otherwise, IMO messages related to navigation should still receive priority over them under all circumstances. From what Julian and you have said, I assume that was what in the 'Rule Book' anyway.

IIRC, you're talking about Lady and Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon, who offered all the crew members 5 pounds to allow them to start rebuilding their kits. I'm not at home right now, so I hope I'm thinking of the right people. IIRC, he was criticized for it as "bribing" them to keep people out of the lifeboats.

I have always believed that that £5 was Cosmo's effort to help the crew in his boat and not meant as a bribe; I have no doubt that one of the newspaper reporters somewhere got the idea that it would make a more sensational story if he/she described it as a bribe so that the crew of the underfilled Lifeboat #1 would not insist on going back to pick-up more people out of the water. The related scene in the film version of ANTR helped to foster that 'bribe' idea for later years, depicting Lucile Duff-Gordon as some sort of selfish b***h.

I don’t think there is any evidence whatsoever that Marconi Operators were paid a commission on commercial messages sent.

OK, but even if they were not paid a commission - ie an agreed fixed official sum - for private messages, would Marconi Company be in a position to make sure that their operators did not accept tips whilst on board a ship? In that regard, I would like someone to tell me how far "Out of Bounds" the wireless room was considered for passengers; even if it was, Bride and Phillips were not confined to their quarters and had to mingle to have their meals etc. So, IF people like Astor, Strauss, Hays, Widener, Thayer etc, who had a range of business interests, wanted to have a "quick word" with either of the two operators, IMO that would have been possible. I am not saying such things actually happened, but just considering the possibilities.

Maybe they use the word different in England.

It is sometimes called "Gratuity" in the UK but "Tip" is also widely accepted - both literally and materially .

 

[Steven Christian]

I would understand and even appreciate that as far as that practice was restricted to how commercial traffic was handled within itself. But whether the individual operators received any incentives for handling passenger messages or otherwise, IMO messages related to navigation should still receive priority over them under all circumstances. From what Julian and you have said, I assume that was what in the 'Rule Book' anyway.


I have always believed that that £5 was Cosmo's effort to help the crew in his boat and not meant as a bribe; I have no doubt that one of the newspaper reporters somewhere got the idea that it would make a more sensational story if he/she described it as a bribe so that the crew of the underfilled Lifeboat #1 would not insist on going back to pick-up more people out of the water. The related scene in the film version of ANTR helped to foster that 'bribe' idea for later years, depicting Lucile Duff-Gordon as some sort of selfish b***h.


OK, but even if they were not paid a commission - ie an agreed fixed official sum - for private messages, would Marconi Company be in a position to make sure that their operators did not accept tips whilst on board a ship? In that regard, I would like someone to tell me how far "Out of Bounds" the wireless room was considered for passengers; even if it was, Bride and Phillips were not confined to their quarters and had to mingle to have their meals etc. So, IF people like Astor, Strauss, Hays, Widener, Thayer etc, who had a range of business interests, wanted to have a "quick word" with either of the two operators, IMO that would have been possible. I am not saying such things actually happened, but just considering the possibilities.


It is sometimes called "Gratuity" in the UK but "Tip" is also widely accepted - both literally and materially .

"Gratuity". Yes that would make sense. It's been awhile since I read about it but I recall that when Cosmo and the crewmen talked about their situation and the money was offered it was well past the time people swamping or climbing aboard would have even been an issue. So the bribe for that doesn't add up.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I’ve got an appointment tomorrow at 1.30pm at the Gwent Archive to look into the Artie Moore stuff. Will let you know how I get on.

That is great to know. We may come to know more about the scholarship offer by the Monmouthshire Education Committee in response to the publicity that Moore received following his revelation of the Titanic distress call. Since that happened fairly soon after the disaster in 1912, any mention of that in the archives would add tremendous credibility to Moore's claim to fame.

 

[Gordon Mooneyhan]

I would understand and even appreciate that as far as that practice was restricted to how commercial traffic was handled within itself. But whether the individual operators received any incentives for handling passenger messages or otherwise, IMO messages related to navigation should still receive priority over them under all circumstances. From what Julian and you have said, I assume that was what in the 'Rule Book' anyway.

I would assume that navigation messages would still take priority, although it's painfully apparent that Mesaba's ice warning did not have that effect on Phillips.

OK, but even if they were not paid a commission - ie an agreed fixed official sum - for private messages, would Marconi Company be in a position to make sure that their operators did not accept tips whilst on board a ship? In that regard, I would like someone to tell me how far "Out of Bounds" the wireless room was considered for passengers; even if it was, Bride and Phillips were not confined to their quarters and had to mingle to have their meals etc. So, IF people like Astor, Strauss, Hays, Widener, Thayer etc, who had a range of business interests, wanted to have a "quick word" with either of the two operators, IMO that would have been possible. I am not saying such things actually happened, but just considering the possibilities.

I just remembered something. Mr. Bride mentioned in one of his tellings of what happened as the ship sank that he had gone to their sleeping quarters to retrieve some clothes and money. That could infer that there were tips or gratuities from passengers.

It is sometimes called "Gratuity" in the UK but "Tip" is also widely accepted - both literally and materially .

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I cannot wait to hear what Julian found out at this appointment at the Gwent Archives earlier today. He was going to check further into Artie Moore's involvement in receiving the Titanic's distress call.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Think I’ve strained my eyes this afternoon so will keep this relatively brief!

A lot more still to do on this so at least a few more visits to the Gwent Archive in Ebbw Vale with it’s wonderful staff. Nothing was too much trouble.

Ok, so I had already found the South Wales Gazette newspaper article of 6th October 1911 reporting the award of a bursary to Artie Moore. So the main object this afternoon was to carefully go through the records of the Monmouthshire Education Committee who made the award to Artie.

So we start with the minutes of the Monmouthshire Higher Education sub- committee of 22nd September 1911 confirming exactly the newspaper report of 6th October 1911.

Then the Higher Education sub -committee recommend on 13th December 1911 that the bursary be paid to Artie Moore to study at the British School of Telegraphy in London plus an additional £5 for tuition in Mathematics.

Then the same committee on 14th March 1912 records a report received by them from the Manager of the British School of Telegraphy that Artie is doing well, and that the Manager hopes he will take the Government Examination at the beginning of April [1912].

Then we come to perhaps what is the most significant record. The Report of the Director of Higher Education dated 19th April 1912.

That Artie had passed the Government Examination of Competency in Wireless Telegraphy.

As part of the bursary had not been used up, the committee arranged a course at Newport Technical Institute in Electrical Measurements “whilst he is waiting to obtain a post as a Wireless Operator “.

The Special Higher Education Sub- committee minutes of 12th June 1912 record that Artie has been appointed to a post under the Marconi International Marine Communication Company Limited.

We don’t have the exact dates of Artie’s course in London but it must have been between 13th December 1911 and 19th April 1912. He could have sat his examination just before Easter in early April 1912?

So there we are!

I found going through 12 months or so of Education committee and sub- committee records very interesting. Clearly in what was then Monmouthshire, education was very well recorded and organised. No mention of Titanic in any Education Committee Reports or minutes or those of it’s numerous sub committees. But frequent mention of the Coal Strike and the hardship that was being caused and the price of coal for schools etc or no coal being available. The Monmouthshire Education Committee organised what would these days be referred to as ‘free school meals’ for many during the Coal Strike.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I can’t find any evidence of Cottam and Bride giving any priority to wealthy passengers on the Carpathia after the disaster, which is the only ship we have extensive records of passengers’ messages being sent, via Booth ‘Signals of Disaster’. If Cottam and Bride were getting ‘tips’ to prioritise certain passengers’ messages I cannot find any evidence of this, other than that a wealthy passenger would be able to afford a long message to be sent, as opposed to Pitman’s pithy “Safe Bert”. They were sent according to the instructions of Captain Rostron, and if Rostron had the slightest inclination of messages being ‘tipped’ and given priority I think he would have been very unhappy. That he wasn’t indicates to me no such practice existed with Marconi Operators.

If you couldn’t afford to send a Marconigram then you couldn’t send one.

But we are rather getting off the topic of this thread which is Artie Moore at Gelligroes Mill!

 

[Julian Atkins]

One of the thoughts that has occurred to me is that Titanic sank on the night of 15th April. Sam has very helpfully pointed out that in the UK the distress signals were from 3am onwards in the UK.

One of the things apparent to me is that in this bit of South Wales at this time there were no trains running that Sunday or any Sunday and this area had a strong Calvinist tradition. If Artie were up at 3am onwards on 15th Monday night after midnight on Sunday 14th, when Sunday observance was strictly obeyed around here I wonder if this really adds up?

And we don’t know for sure when he got back from his studies and examination in London.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Excellent research Julian and some very relevant findings. I suppose looking at those findings from one perspective, a trifle disappointing because they do raise questions about the belief that Artie Moore received one or more distress messages from the sinking Titanic in the early hours of Monday 15th April 1912. Still........

Then the Higher Education sub -committee recommend on 13th December 1911 that the bursary be paid to Artie Moore to study at the British School of Telegraphy in London plus an additional £5 for tuition in Mathematics.
Then the same committee on 14th March 1912 records a report received by them from the Manager of the British School of Telegraphy that Artie is doing well, and that the Manager hopes he will take the Government Examination at the beginning of April [1912].

That does clearly indicate that Moore was already involved and making progress with the Monmouthshire Education Committee and the British School of Telegraphy before the Titanic even set sail.

The Report of the Director of Higher Education dated 19th April 1912.
That Artie had passed the Government Examination of Competency in Wireless Telegraphy. And we don’t know for sure when he got back from his studies and examination in London.

However, the Manager's statements above suggest that Moore's examination itself was at the beginning of April 1912; although no dates are mentioned, the wording suggests (if not confirms) that he might have already taken the examination by the 10th of April 1912. Even today results of such examinations sometimes take a day or two to come out and so it is not unrealistic to assume that in 1912 it could have taken around a week; furthermore, the results themselves might have come out but for that to be included in the Report of the Director of Higher education might have taken a bit longer.

Clearly in what was then Monmouthshire, education was very well recorded and organised. No mention of Titanic in any Education Committee Reports or minutes or those of it’s numerous sub committees

That could be the most telling part, but is it conclusive enough to dismiss the possibility?

One of the things apparent to me is that in this bit of South Wales at this time there were no trains running that Sunday or any Sunday and this area had a strong Calvinist tradition. If Artie were up at 3am onwards on 15th Monday night after midnight on Sunday 14th, when Sunday observance was strictly obeyed around here I wonder if this really adds up?

I think it could add-up. If, as is likely, Moore had taken the examination earlier and perhaps even knew the result, he is likely to have returned to his hometown in Wales for the weekend.

Grasping at straws? Maybe.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I did manage to find online today all the monthly editions of The Marconigram magazine and it’s successor this morning.

I wasn’t expecting to find anything as it is principally a publicity publication for Marconi, at least in the early days (1911 and 1912) but there was the possibility of a bit of publicity about this one legged miller’s son from an obscure village in South Wales joining Marconi etc Limited. But absolutely nothing. And I couldn’t find an obituary in it’s successor publication in 1949, though there were no obituaries at all for anyone!

A bit of trivia. Marconi was involved in a road accident in the autumn of 1912 so could not be present to personally present Harold Bride with a gold watch for his heroism.

In the summer of 1912 Bride was ‘transferred’ from Titanic to the Medina.

Artie Moore would have had to have a licence from the Post Office to engage in amateur wireless telegraphy in 1911. And when he was at The British School of Telegraphy, Clapham, London (before Titanic even sailed on her maiden voyage) he had to sit and pass a Government Examination of competency via the Post Master General. Not some in-house examination of competency in wireless telegraphy.

As The British School of Telegraphy in London still exists, albeit under a different name, it is possible that they may have records relating to 1911 and 1912. As apparently 4 of the wireless operators involved in the Titanic disaster trained there (rather than Marconi’s own training school) I shall attempt to follow this up.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I knew that it was an ultra-long shot but just so that no stone was left unturned, I had sent an e-mail to the Gwent Police a few days ago asking if there was any record in their archives about Artie Moore filing a report on Monday 15th April 1912 about the message that he received from the Titanic. I even sent them the BBC link in which it says that one of the first people he informed was at the Police station / Outpost in Caerphilly.

The following was their predictable short response.

RE: Online form submission: CDS-24058-23-6100-002

CallHandling <contact@gwent.police.uk>​	Thu, 8 Jun, 17:39 (14 hours ago)

Good afternoon

Unfortunately we do not hold records that far back.

Thanks

Gwent Police

I suppose I expected that, but it was still a bit disappointing.