Catholic Passengers on Titanic

[Martin Williams]

Mmmmmmmm, you could be right. The very old Tory families were Catholic, I think? I'm slightly out of my period here but I believe they formed the backbone of support for James II and the Young Pretender?

So much hair-splitting went on during the mid- to late-nineteenth century on the subject of Anglicanism v. Catholicism in the English Church and, I confess, the finer points are all a bit beyond me (despite having been to university in Oxford, where the Anglo-Catholic movement was concentrated). All I can assert with safety is that Catholic aristocrats in 1912 were in the minority.

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

I actually said that "ENGLISH Catholicism was in many ways a toffs religion", by which I meant that, following the success of the English Reformation, 16th century Catholicism developed an aristocratic background - its priests, for example, being in many cases the sons of noble families who had been trained in Europe and returned to England in disguise. This meant that, in the first half of the 19th century, when England became a place of refuge for about 1,000,000 displaced Irish Catholics, the indigenous Catholic families did not provide the kind of political leadership that might have been expected. The Irish Catholics therefore merged into the English working class (inter-marriage being surprisingly common), which meant that a Catholic working class tradition began to emerge.

As far as the Titanic is concerned, this suggests that Catholic passengers are likely to be found among the First Class, as well as the Third Class travellers - though the priests (like their Anglican and Non-conformist colleagues) appear to have travelled Second Class!

 

[Brian Ahern]

Stanley - the fair amount of reading I've done gels with what you say.

My sense is that Catholicism was less of a handicap in English High Society than it was in American High Society. Obviously, the American social order - being newer - required stricter guidelines. I do always point out, however, that the frequent assertion that Catholics had no place in Society in the 19th and early 20th centuries is false. There were Catholic families among Mrs. Astor's 400 (the Carrolls and Iselins), the Drexels of Philadelphia (being of Austrian descent) were largely Catholic (many had married out of the religion by 1912), and the Vanderbilts had at least two Catholic branches. Clarence Mackay - to whom Madeleine Astor was rumored to be engaged before she married William K. Dick - was also a devout Catholic.

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

Hello Brian,

I know much less about the nuances of American society than I do about the British Isles, but my feeling is that the American elite was, for many years dominated by WASPish elements. This can presumably be traced back to the days of the puritans who were, by any definition, extremely Protestant in their outlook? I think that this sometimes leads to misunderstandings (particularly on this site!) when people fail to notice the subtle differences between British and American society. For example, I detect an element of surprise that so many First Class passengers were, in fact, Catholics when they "should", according to stereotype, have been Episcopalians. That is why, in an earlier comment, I tried to raise the point about "poor" Anglicans in the Third Class - where I live, in the south of England, Anglicanism was traditionally seen as the religion of the entire community - the rural working class as well as the elite.

 

[Martin Williams]

I'm not sure that we can make ANY generalisations about one denomination being for the upper class and one for the lower - there are exceptions (as we have seen, often many exceptions) to every rule.

But it is interesting to observe that so many of us (myself included) have a sense that American Society was dominated by Anglicans. WASP does, after all, stand for 'white Anglo-Saxon PROTESTANT'. The Catholic influence came with the influx of poor Irish immigrants in the mid-19th Century. Even decades later, the Kennedys were deemed to be beyond the social pale in their hometown of Boston, where I believe prejudice against the Irish newcomers was pronounced.

In England, the 'Establishment' was greatly biased towards the Protestant elite. But vast swathes of the rural working class (such as those who lived in my home county of Shropshire and the neighbouring counties of Herefordshire and Worcestershire) would most certainly have been Protestant too. Flora Thompson in her delightful and moving 'Larkrise to Candleford' refers to the practices of non-conformists like Catholics and Methodists, and the attitudes their neighbours adopted towards them.

 

[Doni McLerran]

Hmmm... I can't speak for all of American society, since it really depends on what part of the area we're from. But I live in the so-called "Bible Belt" and if you ask me, everything seems to be dominated by Baptists! (And I used to be one, though I'm not now.) The Episcopal Church is a small minority now. Nowadays, the hispanic population is fastest-growing, with immigrants coming from Latin America, and most being Catholic.

But I digress... I can't personally say what my part of the country was in 1912, but my grandparents, all of whom I knew later before they died, were all born in 1900 or earlier. They were all most very definitely Protestant (and not Anglican -- they were Disciples or Presbyterians or things like that).

All of my family was on this side of the Atlantic well before 1900, so I can add absolutely nothing else about Britain or Europe.

 

[Martin Williams]

As a matter of interest, is the Episcopal Church viewed as a 'posh' denomination in the States today?

 

[Doni McLerran]

Well, although I have been looking into the Catholic Church myself, I am, nonetheless, at the time of this writing, still a member of the Episcopal Church here in the U.S. My own parish is pretty diverse, we have well-to-do and others (like me) just barely making ends meet. We run the gamut. I think most of the Episcopal Church is pretty across-the-board nowadays.

But I think, a generation or two ago, it was probably more likely to be "upper-class" than it is now. The Episcopal Church of 1912 was WAY different than it is now, in class, theology, culture...

Just my opinion, though.

 

[Brian Ahern]

Martin - yes, Episcopalians are thought of as being better-heeled. "WASP", of course, has really broadened in its meaning and you might be called a WASP even if you are not technically one. Many - if not most - of my WASPiest classmates, coming from families that were originally Episcopalian, were in fact Catholic, having Catholic mothers or grandmothers.

I would say that outside of the northeastern US, Catholics were allowed to be more of a presence is "Society". Western cities were, of course, newer and people couldn't be as particular. In the South and in midwestern cities like St. Louis, many of the earliest settlers - and, thus, oldest families - were French Catholics.

 

[sashka pozzetti]

Just in case there is any confusion I don't think Catholics are non-conformists

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

While I think I am right in saying that all of the vicars, priests and ministers of religion aboard the Titanic chose to go down with the sinking ship, and would clearly have given spiritual guidance at the very end, is the story about a priest (or priests) conducting a Mass on the poop deck actually true? Were there any witnesses?

 

[Doni McLerran]

I've know quite a bit about Father Byles' story, but as far as I know, he always said Mass indoors. He was remembered as saying Mass in the lounges of second- and third-class on Sunday morning/afternoon. He said Mass every day at least from Friday (April 12) onward, but I figure it would have been indoors. There are reports that Father Byles would head to the deck to recite the Breviary. But that's an Office, not a Mass.

As for what was going on after the Titanic began to sink, there are those (like Ellen Mary Mockler and Bertha Moran) who especially remember Father Byles praying, consoling passengers, helping load boats, saying the rosary, hearing confessions and giving absolution on the stern. There are reports that Father Peruschitz (and possibly Father Montvila) was on deck with passengers as well. These are the only things I've seen about the priests' activities on deck during the sinking.

 

[Stanley C Jenkins]

Hello again Doni,

I have added a press report about the Requiem Mass that was held for Father Byles and other Catholic clergy in Westminster Cathedral. This has now been "approved", although it has not yet been added as a link to the Father Byles page.

Father Byles was clearly one of the heroes of the sinking insofar as was pro-active in the attempts to rescue the Third Class women and children from the lower decks and would thereby have saved many lives. There is ample evidence for this from survivors such as Bertha Moran. I am asking, however, about the evidence for his actions on the stern during the final plunge; I believe that he would have been giving absolution at the very end, but wonder if anybody actually saw him doing so?

 

[Doni McLerran]

He was hearing confessions and giving absolution (and in some cases conditional absolution without confessions) before all left in the lifeboats. And the survivors who remember him well were among those in the last lifeboats.

But I'm not sure anyone would know 100% certain what happened in his final moments, since likely any witnesses to anything he did died in the final plunge along with him.

But in his office as a priest, and based on his character and life before he ever boarded the Titanic, he probably would have kept at it as long as he could, until he himself was injured or killed. That was simply who he was as man and as priest, and that is what he would have done for the souls he felt were entrusted to him at that moment. But again, the actual witnesses to his final moments most likely died with him.

Thanks for passing along the info on the Requiem Mass!

 

[Doni McLerran]

(Add to above). A related reference on that subject is Agnes McCoys' testimony from Father Archer's website. (This is copyrighted, so I'm only adding the link.)