Lester Mitcham
Member
Evening Bob,
Good to hear.
Lester
Good to hear.
Lester
Children On The Titanic
- Thread starter Shawn Stoner
- Start date
-
- Tags
- children
Lester Mitcham
Member
Hello Mick,
You wrote: "Information from USA gives her an age when the ship sank of 14 years" - Is that the1930 Census? - As I noted the NARA Carpathia Lists have her age as 17. That is also her age as recorded by the American Red Cross. A birth date of 5 July 1897 would make her 14 when she sailed on the Titanic and 32 in March 1930.
If she was born 5 July 1895, then she would have been 16.
Your wrote: "Information from Ireland gives her an age when the ship sank of 17 years". - What information? - The 1901 Census? - You say: "Senan ......... . I think he was probably swayed by the 1901 Census, but I could be wrong." - I thought the Census was done as at 31 March 1901. If Annie was 7 at the time then surely she would have been born 5 July 1893, which would make her 18 when she sailed on the Titanic. - Her age as shown on the Queenstown Boarding List.
It seems to me that the 1901 Census age is incorrect. If she was 17 in April 1912 surely she would have been born 5 July 1894 and only been 6 in March 1901?
Lester
You wrote: "Information from USA gives her an age when the ship sank of 14 years" - Is that the1930 Census? - As I noted the NARA Carpathia Lists have her age as 17. That is also her age as recorded by the American Red Cross. A birth date of 5 July 1897 would make her 14 when she sailed on the Titanic and 32 in March 1930.
If she was born 5 July 1895, then she would have been 16.
Your wrote: "Information from Ireland gives her an age when the ship sank of 17 years". - What information? - The 1901 Census? - You say: "Senan ......... . I think he was probably swayed by the 1901 Census, but I could be wrong." - I thought the Census was done as at 31 March 1901. If Annie was 7 at the time then surely she would have been born 5 July 1893, which would make her 18 when she sailed on the Titanic. - Her age as shown on the Queenstown Boarding List.
It seems to me that the 1901 Census age is incorrect. If she was 17 in April 1912 surely she would have been born 5 July 1894 and only been 6 in March 1901?
Lester
Brian Ahern
Member
For what it's worth, it was VERY common for ladies to fudge their ages when reentering the USA. I've looked up my various relatives' travels on ellisisland.org, and my great-grandmother and her daughters were continually shaving years off their ages. Tracking Titanic passengers in the years after the sinking shows that many of them were prone to doing the same thing. So, clearly, it was easy to get away with.
Bob Godfrey
Member
According to the Mormons' International Genealogy Index, which is generally based on State and Church registries of births, marriages and deaths, Annie was born at Scranton on 5 July 1894. That would make her 17 in April 1912. And at the time of the 1901 Irish census she would have been 6, but only a few weeks short of her 7th birthday. After studying thousands of census returns I know that many parents didn't pay attention to the heading 'age at last birthday' and gave instead the age at nearest birthday for young children, which in Annie's case would have been 7. With the same sort of reasoning, Annie herself when buying her ticket could have declared her age as 18 when she was in fact 17 but almost 18. We know of course that she told the American Red Cross she was 17. In a 1912 article about the Mayo contingent in the Chicago Evening World Annie is listed as 'a girl of sixteen'. Most of the information in the article appears to have been supplied by Annie Kelly, so perhaps 'sixteen' was her estimate of her friend's age.
None of this, of course fits in with Annie's own recollection in later life of being 15 on board the Titanic or, according to her own family, of having been born in July 1897 which would have made her 14 (going on 15). I'm quite prepared to believe that Annie's recollection of her age at the time of a particular event long ago could be rather vague, but could the info on her death certificate be wrong? Most certainly yes. I have my own grandmother's birth certificate, which shows her to have been several years older than the age recorded on her death cert. In my experience, a birth certificate is the only reliable means of assessing a person's age at any future date. And in my opinion, the weight of evidence available so far is in favour of Annie being 17 when she boarded the Titanic. To be sure about this, Mick, you need to get a copy of her birth certificate, which shouldn't be difficult. I'd also contact Senan, who might have further information from Irish records. Certainly I'd look at the 1911 census.
Lester, please pass the Panadol!
None of this, of course fits in with Annie's own recollection in later life of being 15 on board the Titanic or, according to her own family, of having been born in July 1897 which would have made her 14 (going on 15). I'm quite prepared to believe that Annie's recollection of her age at the time of a particular event long ago could be rather vague, but could the info on her death certificate be wrong? Most certainly yes. I have my own grandmother's birth certificate, which shows her to have been several years older than the age recorded on her death cert. In my experience, a birth certificate is the only reliable means of assessing a person's age at any future date. And in my opinion, the weight of evidence available so far is in favour of Annie being 17 when she boarded the Titanic. To be sure about this, Mick, you need to get a copy of her birth certificate, which shouldn't be difficult. I'd also contact Senan, who might have further information from Irish records. Certainly I'd look at the 1911 census.
Lester, please pass the Panadol!
Lester Mitcham
Member
>>Lester, please pass the Panadol!<<
Too late I just finished the packet.
Too late I just finished the packet.
Bob Godfrey
Member
Fear not, Lester. Emergency Panadol drop on its way to you now.
Lester Mitcham
Member
Muchly appreciated Bob. The packages are crashing through the roof tiles and ceiling as I type.
Hello Mick,
5 July 1894 looks like the date. Hope you can confirm. A web-search should give you contacts for Scranton. An e-mail will hopefully provide you with a copy of the birth certificate.
Lester
Hello Mick,
5 July 1894 looks like the date. Hope you can confirm. A web-search should give you contacts for Scranton. An e-mail will hopefully provide you with a copy of the birth certificate.
Lester
Mick Molloy
Member
Lester thanks
Will post how I get on. Keep taking the tablets both of you. They clearly are not in short supply!
Mick
Will post how I get on. Keep taking the tablets both of you. They clearly are not in short supply!
Mick
Lester Mitcham
Member
They are now!
Bob Godfrey
Member
You're welcome, Lester. But go easy - that lot has to keep you going for a couple of weeks till the trucks arrive with your regular supply! 
Mick, unfortunately it seems that in Pennsylvania you need to have very good reason to gain access to 'vital records' of a person to whom you are not related. Maybe it's easier if the person is deceased - can any American member offer some experience here? Also there is no central State registry for 19th century records, so you'd need to apply to the Lackawanna County Courthouse in Scranton. But to my mind the additional confirmation from those school records is enough to settle the matter.
.
Mick, unfortunately it seems that in Pennsylvania you need to have very good reason to gain access to 'vital records' of a person to whom you are not related. Maybe it's easier if the person is deceased - can any American member offer some experience here? Also there is no central State registry for 19th century records, so you'd need to apply to the Lackawanna County Courthouse in Scranton. But to my mind the additional confirmation from those school records is enough to settle the matter.
.
