Damage to the ship's engines?

[Aaron_2016]

Perhaps the majority who witnessed this man had perished in the disaster as only 13 men in second class survived.


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[Rob Lawes]

Maybe.

It's quite a memorable image though.

I've always wondered why Shepard wasn't brought up to the boat deck with his broken leg when it was absolutely clear he would need to be saved?

I've also always wondered why one of the two ships doctors weren't ordered into a boat to look after the survivors given that they'd no real idea how long they were going to be in the boats and having someone with medical knowledge on hand would help.

Anyhow, back to topic. I see no real evidence of ice impact damage to the main engine room area. Dillon mentions nothing about damage or flooding, Oliver visited the engine room area to carry a message from the Captain and says nothing about damage and we also know the engiines were run for a while which suggests they were in working order when she sank.

Furthermore, there were a number of the black gang that transitted through the engine spaces on various duties and those who survive also mention no damage.

Finally, there was some extremely minor flooding in Boiler room 4 which is as close to midships as possible and may have been the last point of contact with the berg. Just aft of Midships as Bride put it would be boiler room 2 which is still quite some distance forward of the engine room.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Maybe.

It's quite a memorable image though.

I've always wondered why Shepard wasn't brought up to the boat deck with his broken leg when it was absolutely clear he would need to be saved?

I've also always wondered why one of the two ships doctors weren't ordered into a boat to look after the survivors given that they'd no real idea how long they were going to be in the boats and having someone with medical knowledge on hand would help.

Anyhow, back to topic. I see no real evidence of ice impact damage to the main engine room area. Dillon mentions nothing about damage or flooding, Oliver visited the engine room area to carry a message from the Captain and says nothing about damage and we also know the engiines were run for a while which suggests they were in working order when she sank.

Furthermore, there were a number of the black gang that transitted through the engine spaces on various duties and those who survive also mention no damage.

Finally, there was some extremely minor flooding in Boiler room 4 which is as close to midships as possible and may have been the last point of contact with the berg. Just aft of Midships as Bride put it would be boiler room 3 which is still quite some distance forward of the engine room.

Charlotte said - "We noticed that the engines had ceased running. They tried to start the engines a few minutes later, but after some coughing and rumbling there was silence once more. Our cabin was so situated that we could follow this clearly."

Yet Olliver witnessed the captain order "half speed ahead" and the two survivors from the engine room only remember the engines going "slow ahead". Boxhall claimed that he looked at the telegraph and it indicated "full speed astern" but yet again the engine room survivors only saw "slow astern". Is it possible that there was a serious fault with the engines? e.g. Did the collision or the emergency stop (described as a series of forward jolts and backward jolts) dislodge something in the engine room or fracture part of her machinery? She also heeled over to port and survivors in the smoking room felt the room twist over and they believed she had lost a propeller blade as the same sensation happened on the Olympic.


Charlotte said about "10 and 15 minutes" after she witnessed the wounded man - "I saw First officer Murdoch place guards by the gangways to prevent others like the wounded stoker from coming on deck. How many unhappy men were shut off in that way from their one chance of safety I do not know, but Mr. Murdoch was probably right. He was a masterful man, astoundingly brave and cool. I had met him the day before when he was inspecting the second cabin quarters, and thought him a bulldog of a man who would not be afraid of anything. This proved to be true. He kept order to the last and died at his post. They say he shot himself. I do not know."

My understand is, she was referring to the aft gangway door on the starboard side (the one that Boxhall was instructed to row towards.) and the coil of rope may have been a rope ladder that was about to be thrown over the side for the passengers to climb down once Boxhall had got into position.


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[Rob Lawes]

I think she's talking about the stairs from the aft well deck (C deck 3rd class promenade) leading on to the 2nd class promenade. It can't be the side gangway doors because men couldn't 'come up' through those.

Also, the stbd side second class gangway door was on e-deck and I don't see Murdoch being all the way down there at any stage of the sinking.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Perhaps. My trusty thesaurus says a gangway can also mean a passageway, a stairway, or a doorway leading from one place to another. So when she says "guards by the gangways to prevent others...." She could mean 'guards by the doorways/stairways/passageways to prevent others...'? She may have assumed the guards were there to "prevent others" when in fact they might have been there to 'help and direct others' towards the lifeboats and were not in any way hostile to the stokers. She may have been confused by their presence and jumped to the wrong conclusion?


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[Oliver K]

Charlotte said - "We noticed that the engines had ceased running. They tried to start the engines a few minutes later, but after some coughing and rumbling there was silence once more. Our cabin was so situated that we could follow this clearly."

Yet Olliver witnessed the captain order "half speed ahead" and the two survivors from the engine room only remember the engines going "slow ahead". Boxhall claimed that he looked at the telegraph and it indicated "full speed astern" but yet again the engine room survivors only saw "slow astern". Is it possible that there was a serious fault with the engines? e.g. Did the collision or the emergency stop (described as a series of forward jolts and backward jolts) dislodge something in the engine room or fracture part of her machinery? She also heeled over to port and survivors in the smoking room felt the room twist over and they believed she had lost a propeller blade as the same sensation happened on the Olympic.


Charlotte said about "10 and 15 minutes" after she witnessed the wounded man - "I saw First officer Murdoch place guards by the gangways to prevent others like the wounded stoker from coming on deck. How many unhappy men were shut off in that way from their one chance of safety I do not know, but Mr. Murdoch was probably right. He was a masterful man, astoundingly brave and cool. I had met him the day before when he was inspecting the second cabin quarters, and thought him a bulldog of a man who would not be afraid of anything. This proved to be true. He kept order to the last and died at his post. They say he shot himself. I do not know."

My understand is, she was referring to the aft gangway door on the starboard side (the one that Boxhall was instructed to row towards.) and the coil of rope may have been a rope ladder that was about to be thrown over the side for the passengers to climb down once Boxhall had got into position.


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Do you think that the ship "twisting over" was the thrust/torque from the propeller shafts transmitting through the ship? The ship had massive Thrust bearings and that torque has to go somewhere, and of course the engines becoming unbalanced as they spin down.

"Coughing And Rumbling" sounds like they were "cranking" it like you'd do with an automobile but of course, with a reversing engine and not a starter motor, i can only think the only reason a steam engine would not crank is if steam is not being admitted to the cylinders or if there is a crack in the line somewhere.

I'm also curious about how the wounded stoker got up on deck, if he was on the Aft Well Deck or poop deck, it's impossible that he climbed several sets of ladders, traversed scotland road, climbed several flights of stairs, and then walked out of the door with no fingers and probably in horrible pain, I can guess that he lost his fingers from the doors or the dampers or maybe something else but i'm curious about the path he took, and why he took it, perhaps he thought there was a chance of getting on a boat? "Its hell below me" could it be possible he got into a fight with another or leading stoker and got shoveled in the fingers?

 

[Rob Lawes]

Possibly Aaron but we do know from other survivors that access up from the aft well deck was being controlled so it fits more closely with what we know.

I agree that it's a curious route to take by the wounded stoker O and O, but we don't know where he was wounded or how well he knew the ship? Maybe he was wounded forward and was making his way aft to the hospital on D deck, starboard side? Finding no one there perhaps then he headed aft and up.

Like I said, its quite a story and an image so its odd that there isn't more about it.

 

[B-rad]

According to my research, based on data of trials of other ships, the engines could be put into reverse in 7-20 seconds. The change valves to the turbine were connected to a Brown's engine, to a lever on the starting platform next to the main reverse lever. One just had to pull this lever and then pull the main reverse lever. The engines however would not start having any reverse effect until up to a minute or more afterwards. The throttle, in an emergency situation, would be operated after the engines were engaged as it was more important to start the engines going reverse than worrying about steam pressure. Two greasers were handy to handle the telegraphs and valves as was the regulation when the engineer on watch was not present at the starting platform.

The surveyor at Titanic's trials would note, "...the change over valve between the reciprocating engines and the turbine working quickly and efficiently and the reciprocating engines being readily handled for maneuvering."

Dillion would hear the telegraph ring 2 seconds before any shock, and not see 'stop' until 1 1/2min after the shock. Scott would notice a shock first and then see the telegraphs. Scott would believe something had gone wrong in the engine room (would the iceberg have cause such an impact to believe something had gone wrong in the engine room???). All evidence shows that the telegraphs rang before any shock and not afterwards. There's a lot of conflicting testimony, and this is one area that I keep coming back to, hopeful that something will jump out and clear it up. Needless to say that has not happened. LOL.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Do you think that the ship "twisting over" was the thrust/torque from the propeller shafts transmitting through the ship? The ship had massive Thrust bearings and that torque has to go somewhere, and of course the engines becoming unbalanced as they spin down.

"Coughing And Rumbling" sounds like they were "cranking" it like you'd do with an automobile but of course, with a reversing engine and not a starter motor, i can only think the only reason a steam engine would not crank is if steam is not being admitted to the cylinders or if there is a crack in the line somewhere.

I'm also curious about how the wounded stoker got up on deck, if he was on the Aft Well Deck or poop deck, it's impossible that he climbed several sets of ladders, traversed scotland road, climbed several flights of stairs, and then walked out of the door with no fingers and probably in horrible pain, I can guess that he lost his fingers from the doors or the dampers or maybe something else but i'm curious about the path he took, and why he took it, perhaps he thought there was a chance of getting on a boat? "Its hell below me" could it be possible he got into a fight with another or leading stoker and got shoveled in the fingers?

I believe the twisting motion that was felt in the smoking room was the dropping of a propeller blade because a number of survivors believed it had occurred and they felt the same sensation that was felt on the Olympic when she lost a blade earlier that year, including the survivors who had previously sailed on the Olympic during that voyage, but that is for another thread. I believe the wounded stoker would have climbed his way upwards in need of medical attention in the ship's hospital. Lightoller met the two doctors coming from the direction of the bridge shortly before the end. He said "They were just coming from the direction of the bridge. They were evidently just keeping out of everybody's way. They were keeping away from the crowd so as not to interfere with the loading of the boats." I understand some of the passengers may have had physical disabilities or were pregnant, and the doctors may have been summoned to notify the captain if any of them needed special attention e.g. assisted to the boat deck from their cabins perhaps? The ship's hospital may have been evacuated and all necessary supplies that would equate to an emergency medical pack would be taken up to the boats, or at least one would assume so.


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[coal eater]

but bflooding in boiler room 4 was not so critical but crew abandoend br 4 anyway, the stoker who lost his fingers might been injured when handling the furnaces of boiler? they are heavy metal plate with no support so once drops it fall with force if fingers were on the boiler casing and plate fall over fingers its possibly it cut them? or maybe float activated between boiler room 4 and 3 and watertight door started go down and caught stoker with his fingers at doorframe? loss of all fingers on hand is still giving major blood loss and how he did manage to get so high when he could use only one hand? did someone help him get on top? maybe the stoker was ordered to close portholes and he held one wrong way and forced it then got his finger snapped? we know titanic had open portholes,atleast few.was any attempt made to close them or not?

titanic engines wre strongly resistant agaist shock and collision with ice could not make any damage.

if guards were used to prevent people like fignerless stoker going on board why they let stoker go up instead of directing him to ship hospital? it was emergency situation and injury like that must be treated to stop bleeding

loss of propeller blade will result in ship going into vibration but will not cause additional damage unless propeller shaft is also damaged.if ship was going ahead for short time after colision engines had no time to get half speed ahead,most likely telegraph order was slow ahead and captain shouted to engine room to work on half speed ahead and when its ready for half speed would captain order it?

titanic engines were technically operational after collision,how long titanic engines could go ahead or astern after collision (we know the movement was done for 5-10minutes) just really curious if titanic could steam forward much longer than those 5019 minutes,if it could how long they wuld go knowing br 6 was out of use and br 5 was in trouble? what was titanic minimum on boilers to get engines going,would it go slowly at just three boiler rooms running or mandatory was to get four?

what else was happening so murdoch set guards? was it only that wounded stoker or something bigger was going on? or maybe he spotted structural failure and wanted isolate the damaged area from passengers?

 

[Oliver K]

OK, first of all, may i ask, is english your first language? Your writing isn't exactly top-notch but it isn't bad if english isn't your first language.

To answer your question, i have theorized in this same thread that the stoker caught his fingers in the damper of the boiler, but we can only make theories, it is also very possible that he caught his fingers in the watertight door but those doors work on a sort of clutch mechanism that gets released by a solenoid allowing the door to close but while closing the main gear for the door will strike a bell multiple times to give a warning, there could of been something that caused the stoker not to hear the bell (shouting, etc) and therefor got his fingers caught in the door, also, for the last foot or something like that, the doors free-fell often crushing odd bits of coal, i can also think that the stoker saw the door closing, jumped to try and crawl through it while closing but he had his hand out and it free-fell on his fingers.

The stoker emerged out of the aft 3rd class staircase, even i have no idea how that stoker climbed multiple ladders, walked scotland road and climbed multiple stairs with no fingers, there was watertight doors on scotland road that operated with a rack and pinion so maybe the stoker caught in his fingers in there, we can only theorize on what happened.

I'm not exactly sure about the guards or the amount of boilers needed to raise steam for the engines, sorry.

But i hope this helps!

 

[B-rad]

The door itself did not ring the bell, the bell was to be activated by the officer on the bridge prior to the closing of the watertight doors. There would also be not part of the solenoid in which he would get his fingers stuck in, and the clutch housing was covered. An Analysis of Titanic's Vertical and Lateral Watertight Doors
I am skeptical of the man loosing 'all' his fingers, though anything is possible, but there is only this one eye witness? Ruth Becker also apparently encountered a crew member whose finger was nearly severed. Could this be the same person? There are reports of what crew members were taken to the hospital after rescue and the injuries they had but unfortunately I'm in no position to look any of that up.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Mrs Collyer said he lost all of his fingers on one hand so he would still be able to climb the ladders using his other hand before collapsing on the coil of rope near him. When the water rushed into the boiler rooms it would push shovels, wheelbarrows, tools, and coal against the open watertight door and possibly it closed and jammed against everything that had piled up against the door by the water rushing in, and in the process of removing the items that bocked the door there was an injury? Not sure how the automatic device worked as the doors on the Britannic failed to close despite the water rushing in rapidly. The Britannic listed heavily to starboard, so perhaps that prevented the doors from closing automatically or jammed them half way down owing to the angle, or the bending motion of the ship. The same could have occurred on the Titanic as she listed heavily to port.


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[B-rad]

Britannic's doors were most likely miss aligned due to the explosion. These doors were heavy cast and would not bend easy. Titanic's port list was only heavy (if you go by the Baker's account) during its finale moments after the ship broke. The list to port during the sinking was most likely caused by the free water building up in Scotland Road. As Joughin is really the only survivor on the stern to mention such a large list to port, I have personally speculated that this was a temporary occurrence caused by the ship breaking apart, but that's another thread. Either way, though there is no proof I can offer one way or the other, I do not believe Titanic's doors had any reason to have failed.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Not the doors themselves, but perhaps the walls, frames, ceilings, and floors might have bent or buldged as the ship tilted and twisted to one side. I recall a passenger was trapped in their cabin as their door had jammed and somebody had to break the door down with their shoulder. I understand this was caused by the floor bending which pushed the floor upwards and the ceiling downwards and jammed the door. Perhaps the same had occurred below decks in the latter stages of the sinking which prevented the doors from closing all the way as the ship listed over to port.

Colonel Gracie said the list was so extreme that he believed the ship was about to topple over completely and a number of survivors heard the captain and officers order the passengers to the starboard side "to keep the ship up as long as possible."

Mr. Keene said - "It appeared to us that when the ship had listed heavily to port the engines fell out and crashed through the side.....One of the engineers got horribly jammed when the doors in the bullkheads were closed. His injuries were terrible, and, as there was no chance of releasing him, he implored that he might be shot to be put out of his misery. This I have been told was done."


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