Dogs

[dirk danschutter]

by the way, now that we are talking about the animals on the titanic, is anyone of you recognising this part of the Titanic? Deck? I don't recall to have ever seen large

cargo winches at the cabin sites of the Titanic?

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

by the way, now that we are talking about the animals on the titanic, is anyone of you recognising this part of the Titanic? Deck? I don't recall to have ever seen largeView attachment 43719 cargo winches at the cabin sites of the Titanic?

Sadly this is one which came up very often as a photograph showing dogs on Titanic but it is not. It is a photograph taken aboard the Berengaria (ex Imperator).

 

[dirk danschutter]

Sadly this is one which came up very often as a photograph showing dogs on Titanic but it is not. It is a photograph taken aboard the Berengaria (ex Imperator).

Thank you very much for your answer! There is a second (and last) picture circulating about the dogs, also alledgedly taken by father Brown before he left Titanic at Cobh.

I tend to believe it is genuine since I kind of recognize the ladders to the crawsnests next to either the forecastle or stern cargo sections of the Titanic. What is your opinion? Hoax too? Sincerely, Dirk

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

If the claim is it was taken by father Brown then yes. I think the photograph is from the Smithsonian (?) and making it's rounds online as Titanic's dogs. There has been also the false claim that the photograph was taken aboard the Carpathia showing the rescued dogs of Titanic, again false. There is no connection to Titanic. The dogs are unknown, the ship is unknown. (The foremast had a ladder inside, the lookouts climbed that ladder from the access on C Deck in the forecastle to get into the crows nest.)

 

[dirk danschutter]

Hello, thank you a lot for your reply!
I have no proof Father Browne took the picture (yet), I purchased "Titanic Souvenirs" but I don't have it in my possession yet. And yes, the Smithsonian seems to claim this is an authentic Titanic picture...
Nevertheless, me too, I tend to believe that the accessladders of both the Titanic foreship and the stern are in a deck section with a solid (closed) ramp and not an open one like shown in this picture...
However, the dogs (a Great Dane and a fox terrier) would be very 'convenient' as William Dulles had a fox terrier he claimed loss for and it might be that the Great Dane belonged to Elisabeth Anne Isham. Anyway, if these dogs were on the Titanic, then they would have been property of first class voyagers (referring to the price of a ticket).
Four women of first class perished in a rather 'witnessed' way: Ida Straus holding the arm of her husband, Edith Evans collapsed overboard a lifeboat and Bess Allisson went missing when she crossed the ship in search for her child and husband.
Only Mrs Isham is believed not to have boarded a lifeboat or to get off it - because her dog was not allowed to join her on board of the lifeboat. But there is no proof she had a dog, although a Great Dane was payed for & registered.
Some people a posteriori witnessed there was a St Bernard on board of Titanic, and Joanna Stunke reported to have seen a frozen woman holding on to a "shaggy St Bernard" when the SS Bremen crossed the maritime graveyard on April 20th.
The Great Dane on the picture clearly is (after enhancement of the picture) of the Harlequin type, meaning that he is mixed white with brown and black spots and could therefore easily have been mistaken for a St Bernard of the Splashed Mantle type. Then it is only the length of hair that is a (minor) difference in quite similar looking dogs.
Of course, one cannot force the facts; the second picture would explain a lot "IF" taken on board of the Titanic. The bulldog then - would NOT be the French bulldog Gamin - who swom with 21 year old tennisplayer Norris Williams and who believed he was hallucinating due to hypothermia. And so Edith Russell's testimony that Robert Williams Daniel has left his dog in his cabin, would be true.
Really need to know if the picture is a hoax or not...
Sincerely,
Dirk

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

I have no proof Father Browne took the picture (yet), I purchased "Titanic Souvenirs" but I don't have it in my possession yet.

It is not one of the photos Browne took.

And yes, the Smithsonian seems to claim this is an authentic Titanic picture...
Nevertheless, me too, I tend to believe that the accessladders of both the Titanic foreship and the stern are in a deck section with a solid (closed) ramp and not an open one like shown in this picture...

It is not Titanic, the deck even did not look close to it. No idea what ship it is.

However, the dogs (a Great Dane and a fox terrier) would be very 'convenient' as William Dulles had a fox terrier he claimed loss for and it might be that the Great Dane belonged to Elisabeth Anne Isham.

Sorry to say but Mrs. Isham did not had a dog. It is sad to see that this made up story is still making it's rounds online (it started several years ago with a baseless claim in a child book which was taken by some as a fact) along with the false photographs. It is known who had a dog with him and which dogs survived (they were taken into the lifeboats by their owners). Some of the dogs did stay in the cabins with their owners while others where in the kennel.
The report from Johanna Stunke is well known among researchers, some believe it might have been a fur coat she saw.

 

[SmileyGirl]

The story that always upsets me is the one where a lady had a dog which was refused into the lifeboat and so she refused to get in. Her body was found later with her arms around the dog. Is there any truth to this story guys? If so, who was it? Thanks.

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

That story made it's rounds but no survivor directly said to have seen it or that it happened at her or his boat. In short no one saw it.

 

[SmileyGirl]

Ok, I’m kind of relieved at that, it always makes me cry!

 

[dirk danschutter]

Thank you so much for the replies, very much appreciated!!! I joined this forum less than a day ago and what an education already it has been!
According to Pr Joseph Edgette of the Widener University, 12 dogs boarded the Titanic and were registered. Possibly there were a few more in the 2nd or 3rd class, but these dogs were probably more like 'smuggled'. I reckon this is possible, I did it myself with a quiet Jack Russel Terrier under my sweater on a Greek ferryboat (LOL).
We know for sure that Col JJ Astor IV and his young wife Madeleine had their pet Airedale Terrier 'Kitty' accompanying them. The dog was last seen pacing on the slanting deck after JJ Astor had helped his pregnant wife in lifeboat 4.
W. Carter had two dogs accompanying him and his family: also an (elderly) Airedale Terrier and a fox terrier. Harry Anderson had his chowchow with him. RW Daniel purchased a champion French Bulldog named Gamin. This small dog was kept with certitude in his cabin. The same accounts for two Pomerians: one belonging to M. Hays and one belonging to E. Rothshild. Also H. Harper and his wife kept their toy dog, a Pekingese called Sun Yat Sen, in their cabin. Also did H. Bishop, she kept a Pomerian like toy dog named FrouFrou in her cabin.
This makes a total of 9 dogs. For 4 of the missing dogs a claim was filed. 3 toy dogs were taken into the lifeboats and were rescued, Gamin and Froufrou were left in their cabins. Meaning that two Airedales (the one of JJ Astor and the one of Carter), one foxterrier and one chowchow would have resulted in 'the surrealistic view of pacing dogs on the slanting deck' and 'that someone must have set them free' (from the kennels situated at the F-deck, but which was immerged by then??) Or were they freed from another location (from the Boatdeck - similar to sistership Olympic)?
Anyway, our count misses 3 dogs.
You mentioned every dog was + the owner registered. Could you please assist me where I can find the 3 'missing' dogs?
Much obliged, thank you very much for these interesting discussions.
Sincerely,
Dirk

 

[dirk danschutter]

I forgot to mention. The claim made about Mrs Isham and her Great Dane is in the 2004 children's book 'White Star: a Dog on the Titanic' (ISBN-13: 978-0439711685). But the author Marty Crisp states he did not invent the story, instead he first researched 11 regsistered dogs, just to drop in with a 12th imaginative dog which he called White Star...

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Thank you so much for the replies, very much appreciated!!! I joined this forum less than a day ago and what an education already it has been!

You are welcome!

According to Pr Joseph Edgette of the Widener University, 12 dogs boarded the Titanic and were registered. Possibly there were a few more in the 2nd or 3rd class, but these dogs were probably more like 'smuggled'.

I do not know how they count the dogs to came to a total of 12. Possibly they added the imaginary dog to Mrs Isham?! Aboard were in total 11 dogs.

That any 2nd & 3rd class "smuggled" a dog aboard is not possible. 3rd class had to pass the examinations by the ships doctors. For 2nd and 3rd class passengers it would be then also the question about how to "hide" a dog for 6 days. How to feed it or went out. That is not possible. The immigrants in 3rd class had also then to pass Ellis Island when in New York.

"someone must have set them free' (from the kennels situated at the F-deck, but which was immerged by then??) Or were they freed from another location (from the Boatdeck - similar to sistership Olympic)?"

The general story goes that Astor released the dogs as Mrs. Astor claimed to have seen Kitty running up the deck when she looks back from the lifeboat. Mrs. Astor was in lifeboat No.4 which rowed aft along the port side. Makes one wonder how she was able to see that, also she is the only one stating it.
The kennels were in the early plans on F Deck, later on Olympic they were moved to the boat deck at the aft end of the deck house of the 4th funnel. It is not clear if they were on Titanic on the boat deck or below.

Anyway, our count misses 3 dogs.

The Astors had 2 dogs, both an Airedale. The other dog owner was Mr. Dulles he had a Scottish terrier.

 

[dirk danschutter]

Thank you again, much obliged! Really!

I was not aware of the strict controls for 2nd and 3rd class passengers. Indeed, it must have been difficult, let us say impossible to 'stowaway' dogs
Yes indeed you are right, I too found a few sources that suggest that the Astors might have been accompanied by not one but two Airedale terriers. I just find it remarkable that the second Airedale is never mentioned, not in New York on Fifth Avenue walks, not on the Olympic, not even once during the honeymoon trip to Egypt where Kitty was lost - the latter has been so well documented. Including the amount of small fortune JJ Astor spent to find his beloved pet back, and the report of how she was found back when the Astors returned from a cruise on the Nile with Kitty still missing. It is 'strange' that the second pet Airdeale is never mentioned over the course of the honeymoon trip (Jan 12th till April 10th) almost certainly meaning that the second pet must have been purchased very late during the honeymoon trip. But, Airedale terriers were hard to get those days as they were the first choice working dogs of all armies (especially the German who were purchasing and training Airedale terriers from 1910 on, in preparation of WWI). To give an example, Leland Duncan was not able to procure himself an Airedale, instead he adopted and transferred two GSD pups (Nénette and Rintintin the First). JJ Astor of course had more money than a US corporal, stilI, I find it remarkable that the second pet is not mentioned 'earlier'.

The sources that suggest the Astors had two Airedales are the same sources that mention Mrs Elisabeth Ann Isham was accompanied by a Great Dane.

You are absolutely right, I forgot to mention W. Dulles (Fox vs Scottish terrier)

Pr Edgette of Widener University (Widener was the only one of three who survived the Titanic shipwreck) always mentions 12 dogs. His count includes Mrs Isham's Great Dane.

Could you perhaps pinpoint or direct me to a source mentioning a dog's list that I have been overlooking till now?

Thank you very much, have a nice weekend!
Dirk

 

[Mark Baber]

See Real Dogs

 

[Harland Duzen]

That story made it's rounds but no survivor directly said to have seen it or that it happened at her or his boat. In short no one saw it.

Not to bring up a sad incident again, but what about the account from a passenger on the Bremen which passed though the wreckage and claimed to (unfortunately) see a passenger clutching a dog?