Dogs
- Thread starter dirk danschutter
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Which source is it? I am afraid I have not seen it. The two dogs Astor had were mentioned by another survivor whose name just escape me. I would need to look though my notes as it is some time ago I have continue my research into it. (One of my very first articles in English was about the pets aboard Titanic.)
So I was right, the dog No. 12 is the "imaginary" dog of Mrs. Isham. She did not have one. And as I mentioned, no survivor ever mentioned to have seen such a scene, yet we sadly see how this story not only is presented as a fact but also connected to a person (Mrs. Isham).
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
I have already mentioned it in my post #31, that it is believed (by some researchers) that it might have been a fur coat (or a body wearing a fur coat).
dirk danschutter
Member
That would be Mrs Joanna Stunke on April 20th, 1912. What she saw is what she believed. She believed she saw a woman clutching (quote) a "shaggy St Bernard". What she saw is the fundamental pivot of a binary algoritm: the "yes" or "no" whether she saw a shaggy St Bernard held in the frozen arms of woman (that was not retrieved by one the chartered ships) or - what most believe today - a dark fur coat.
However, St Bernards were among the best known and most iconic dogs in the late eighties or early nineteens, mostly due to a Swiss herodog called Barry who received a large statue at Mme Durant's Pet Cemetery of Asnières-Paris during its inauguration in 1900. This was well documented and world news. Everyone on this planet knew what a St Bernard was or looked like those days. St Bernards never come in black colour, they have so called reddish mantled or splashed coats with lots of white. Newfoundlanders, Leonbergers or extremely rare Himalayan breeds come in dark coats and could morphologically be mistaken for St Bernards, especially when they are only partially unvisible because of immersion.
Me personally I don't know fur from a wild animal that has a mantled or splashed St Bernard colour pattern, unless it is a synthetic fabric - which was not available in 1912. Therefore, I find it hard to believe that a fur coat could be mistaken for the iconic St Bernard those days. Apparently, I did not find those testimonials yet!! some survivors rememembered to have met a very friendly St Bernard on board, much to their amusement. This would have been Mrs Isham's dog.
But, if one recognizes the muzzle of a dog in collapsable D (which I don't: this looks like an artifact to me laying on the lifeboat's floor) or if some keep stating that the Astors were accompanied by 2 Airedales, then I tend to believe that Mrs Isham was accompanied by - let us say - a large dog. Astor's 'Kitty' was heavily reported on since she was lost before the Astors' cruise on the Nile and apparently the Astors had a second one, an "invisible" Airedale. Kitty has been photopraphed at least 4 times (pictures circulating on the internet) in NY, the other Airedale never and it is never mentioned. If there was a second Airedale, Astor must have obtained it just before their return to New York.
Another story, apparentely, Carter's terrified son begged JJ Astor to look after his pet Airedale en pet KC: Astor allegedly promised to do so. That would make 3 Airedales...
I thank you all people - especially Mark Baber for the many links sent which helped me very much to sum it up (for me):
. There are no existing pictures of the pets on board of the Titanic. The two circulating pics are false claims: one taken on the Berengeria and one on an unidentified ship which is not the Titanic
. No one seems to know/proof with 100% certitude how many dogs there were on the Titanic: the number is at least 10 - it could be 12 as well
. the unidentified dog in collapsible D looks like an artefact to me: the remark of 1 person 'no one seemed to object' or 'dog of a banker's daughter' is granted as proof- against all odds because this would concern an unregistered dog (?), which would be impossible.
. Tennisstar Norris swam accross a bulldog in the freezing ocean and believed it was a hallucination: probably it was! Because E. Russell testified she had confined Gamin de Pycombe in the cabin of its (fled) owner
. The Astors' are sometimes reported to have shipped two Airedale terriers: highly displayed and documented Kitty and an invisible one
. Boy Carter begs JJ Astor to look after his dogs, Astor promises the boy to do so
. The Isham story is not started by Marty Crisp (2004) in 'White Star: a dog on the Titanic': the story already circulated by then. Logically, it must have originated with Joanna Stunke's eyewitness statement and some simple maths following the reasoning: only the rich had their pets boarded. It was a woman Joanna saw clutching to a fur coat or a 'shaggy St Bernard'. Four first class women perished, three of them in eyewitnessed conditions. Isham was reported to have descended and ascended a lifeboat 'for reasons of her dog'. Her body was - if retrieved - not identified, her dissappearing or death is unwitnessed, general Gracie had his cabin next to her but did not recall to have seen her once. To me - if we take for truth all of the above - I count the exact same (non) validated parameters to accept the story of the big dog and Mrs Isham as well...
Thank you all so much for this remarkable and very interesting input of data. Much obliged, you folks are the best!! I learned a lot!!! And I got a lot of extra data to forge my opinion on what happened to the (unexact) number of dogs. Without paying attention to the Rigel, Mouser and Jenny-stories (LOL)
Have a nice WE!!
Dirk
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Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Sorry to say but I am afraid you are doing the same mistake as the people who came up with Miss. Isham had a dog by taking the account of Stunke and then looking which 1st class female passengers did not survive. We know Mrs. Isham had not dog. Aside from that the newspaper with the story from the woman who did not want to leave her dog had mention of a "young lady". Miss. Isham was 50 years old, so not one would call a young woman. There is no eyewitness or lifeboat number mentioned where this incident took place.
Which survivors mentioned it? I do not know one who stated to have seen it or that it happened at their lifeboat.
Here is a clip from the Chicago Tribune from April 21st 1912, no mention of a dog.
As for Stunke, actually this is what is stated: "There was another woman fully dressed, with her arms tightly clutching to the body of a shaggy dog." She believed it was a St. Bernard. (There are some newspaper account of her which vary from the length and some mentioned it was a St. Bernard, others had only the part of the "shaggy dog".) According to the Isham had a dog claim, it was a Great Dane by the way.
dirk danschutter
Member
Indeed, miss Isham was 50 and those who knew her believe she might have stayed on the ship voluntarily - without giving any further detail. The newspaper nor her relatives mention the presence of a dog during her journey to and fro France. But just as Stunke (and others) believed that she saw a shaggy St Bernard clutched by a woman, so can a witness easily have mistaken miss Isham for a younger lady too, in the night, blinded by shipslights, in the heck of the disaster, the lowering of lifeboats, the cold, the immense stress hampered by narrowed vision, the scarfs, the thick clothes and the hats... WYSIWIB: what you see is what you believe but that is not always what it really is. Observer's bias versus confounding surrounding... An example:
Elisabeth JA Rothshild refused to ascend from lifeboat 6 to the Carpathia, if her Pomerian was not allowed on board. From this very forum I copy: 'Mrs Rothschild was rescued in lifeboat 6 along with her Pomeranian (one of three dogs that were saved from the Titanic). The dog had apparently gone undetected during the loading of the lifeboats, and during the night as no survivors remembered the canine until the morning of rescue. When the lifeboat came alongside the Carpathia, crew members at first refused to take Mrs Rothschild's dog. She protested that she would not leave the lifeboat until her dog was placed safely in her lap. She held the dog and was hoisted aboard the Carpathia. It was not highly publicized that Mrs Rothschild's dog had been rescued - largely due to the fact that her husband had gone down with the Titanic. The fate of the dog remains a mystery, descendants of Mrs Rothschild claim that it was killed in New York during a fight with another dog, while Argetsinger and Ellison (1995) record that the dog was killed under the wheels of a carriage amidst the confusion at the dock after arrival in New York.'
Note: none of the rescued dogs were mentioned on the Carpathia.
There is also much analogy between the Isham 'Great Dane' story and the Astors' second Airedale who is nowhere mentioned neither. Madeleine Astor mentioned Kitty pacing over the deck, she does not mention their other or second Airedale. Not during the disaster, and not anywhere before it. It is widely suggested and more agreed upon than not, that the Astors had two Airedales accompanying them. The second dog is included in the Titanic dog count (11 or 12). I believe the Astors had not a second Airedale with them. The second Airedale - if witnessed! - is the one of Carter's son and for which he (the father) claimed loss and insurance coverage.
But as you already mentioned too... we will never know for sure...
Good WE
Dirk
Elisabeth JA Rothshild refused to ascend from lifeboat 6 to the Carpathia, if her Pomerian was not allowed on board. From this very forum I copy: 'Mrs Rothschild was rescued in lifeboat 6 along with her Pomeranian (one of three dogs that were saved from the Titanic). The dog had apparently gone undetected during the loading of the lifeboats, and during the night as no survivors remembered the canine until the morning of rescue. When the lifeboat came alongside the Carpathia, crew members at first refused to take Mrs Rothschild's dog. She protested that she would not leave the lifeboat until her dog was placed safely in her lap. She held the dog and was hoisted aboard the Carpathia. It was not highly publicized that Mrs Rothschild's dog had been rescued - largely due to the fact that her husband had gone down with the Titanic. The fate of the dog remains a mystery, descendants of Mrs Rothschild claim that it was killed in New York during a fight with another dog, while Argetsinger and Ellison (1995) record that the dog was killed under the wheels of a carriage amidst the confusion at the dock after arrival in New York.'
Note: none of the rescued dogs were mentioned on the Carpathia.
There is also much analogy between the Isham 'Great Dane' story and the Astors' second Airedale who is nowhere mentioned neither. Madeleine Astor mentioned Kitty pacing over the deck, she does not mention their other or second Airedale. Not during the disaster, and not anywhere before it. It is widely suggested and more agreed upon than not, that the Astors had two Airedales accompanying them. The second dog is included in the Titanic dog count (11 or 12). I believe the Astors had not a second Airedale with them. The second Airedale - if witnessed! - is the one of Carter's son and for which he (the father) claimed loss and insurance coverage.
But as you already mentioned too... we will never know for sure...
Good WE
Dirk
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Actually the rescued dogs are mentioned aboard Carpathia, some Carpathia passengers and crew members did mentioned them. The Rothschild incident is well known (if you know where to look).
Sorry but I still can not understand the Isham had a dog claim. There are several researches who still are shaking heads of this baseless claim which is coming up like the false photographs online. There is 0 evidence for it to be true yet we have one person after the next one - I am now generally speaking - coming up with it. Joseph Edgette came up with 12 dogs one of it is the one of Isham. Based on what? The same person who has the photographs of the 3 dogs aboard claiming to be Titanic.(Somewhere else it was stated the same photograph was taken aboard Carpathia.)
First of all the "Astor's" interviews were mainly given out by her family, Mrs. Astor herself was not willing and in the condition to give any. The 2nd Astor Airedale is mentioned by survivor Mrs. Goldenberg.
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dirk danschutter
Member
Okay, let us rest Isham's Great Dane (LOL).
The Astors did not have a second Airedale, according to me. It is true that Madeleine Force Astor lived rather isolated (or protected) from the outside world for a few years, but in 1918 she cut the connection to her late husband's fortune by getting public again and by marrying childhood friend W. Kick. Fifteen years and two children later she divorced and married the 26 year younger boxer E. Fiermonte, of whom she divorces because of (extreme) intramarital violence. Madeleine suffered a heart condition and died at the age of 47, in 1940 (CA). So basically, Madeleine had about 30 years to tell about the second Airedale. Which she didn't. Her biography states it as follows: 'To escape all of publicity surrounding their nuptials, the Astors went abroad for their honeymoon. They spent time in Egypt and Europe. With Madeleine pregnant with their first child, the couple decided to return to New York on the maiden voyage of the Titanic. They boarded the ship in Cherbourg, France, on April 10, with some of their servants and their dog, Kitty.' And not: their dogs Kitty and ???
All sources, including the Encyclopaedia Titanica's website's biography on Madeleine Force, state the Astors had 1 pet, Kitty.
I believe this overrules the Goldenberg testimonial, who have indeed witnessed a second Airedale, possibly or briefly in the vicinity of JJ Astor as it has been suggested that he openend the kennels: but this was Carter's son's Airedale, not Astor's.
Good weekend! Thanks again, enjoying the great and detailed input
Dirk
The Astors did not have a second Airedale, according to me. It is true that Madeleine Force Astor lived rather isolated (or protected) from the outside world for a few years, but in 1918 she cut the connection to her late husband's fortune by getting public again and by marrying childhood friend W. Kick. Fifteen years and two children later she divorced and married the 26 year younger boxer E. Fiermonte, of whom she divorces because of (extreme) intramarital violence. Madeleine suffered a heart condition and died at the age of 47, in 1940 (CA). So basically, Madeleine had about 30 years to tell about the second Airedale. Which she didn't. Her biography states it as follows: 'To escape all of publicity surrounding their nuptials, the Astors went abroad for their honeymoon. They spent time in Egypt and Europe. With Madeleine pregnant with their first child, the couple decided to return to New York on the maiden voyage of the Titanic. They boarded the ship in Cherbourg, France, on April 10, with some of their servants and their dog, Kitty.' And not: their dogs Kitty and ???
All sources, including the Encyclopaedia Titanica's website's biography on Madeleine Force, state the Astors had 1 pet, Kitty.
I believe this overrules the Goldenberg testimonial, who have indeed witnessed a second Airedale, possibly or briefly in the vicinity of JJ Astor as it has been suggested that he openend the kennels: but this was Carter's son's Airedale, not Astor's.
Good weekend! Thanks again, enjoying the great and detailed input
Dirk
SmileyGirl
Guest
Oh I hadn’t heard of that story.
Ioannis Georgiou
Member
Sorry but it seems you do not understand. Many parts of Titanic story have come out by years of research. The Goldenberg part is something new. The Astor biography on ET is not final and many biographies had been updated since new sources came up. I am researching Titanic's story for about 30 years now and find always something new. The part about the animals aboard is something I have collected information for years (as did some other researchers).
As for Mrs. Astor, she lost her husband while she was awaiting a child of him. I think this is more trauma than talking of a dog or correcting press reports about only Kitty.
How do you know it was Carters Airedale Mrs. Goldenberg saw?! What is your primary source for it? Mrs. Goldenberg by the way was in the 2nd lifeboat which left the sinking ship which was No. 5. Long before the story about Astor releasing the dogs from the kennels which was close to the end of the sinking.
You do not agree that Mrs. Goldenberg mention a 2nd dog for the Astors but take is as a fact the made up story about Isham?!
Aaron_2016
Guest
Survivor William Greenfields said he was - 'more disturbed by the barks and cries from the dogs than the cries of the people'. Let us hope none of them suffered for long. Reminds me of the many animal transport ships that sank in WW1 e.g. SS Mount Temple sank with over 700 horses drowned, and the SS Armenian sank with over 1,400 mules drowned. The loss of life was high for both humans and animals. There are quite a few memorials to remember the animals lost in wartime.
Steven Christian
Member
Well there have been days when I've seen things that I liked dogs more than people. Maybe for whatever reason that was one of those days for him. But should a dog take up a space for a person...No. Well ok, maybe some people.
SmileyGirl
Guest
OMG I didn’t know this. Poor horses and mules
That’s a nice memorial. I always wear a purple poppy as well as a red one at Remembrance time.
SmileyGirl
Guest
Yes some people definitely!
Mark Baber
RIP
10 December 1916: En route from Philadelphia (2 or 3 December) to Brest and Liverpool, Georgic I (Capt. Alexander H. Summers) is shelled and captured by the German merchant raider Möwe 500 mi. ESE of Cape Race. One person is killed in the shelling; the rest of those on board escape safely but are taken prisoner and will be held in a POW camp for the rest of the war. (See 16 December.) After lengthy debate about the fate of the 1200 horses on board (valued at $250,000), Georgic is sunk, taking the horses and a cargo of war supplies (valued at $1,000,000; unclear whether this includes the horses) to the bottom with her. (Sources: The New York Times, various dates in January through April 1917; The World Evening Edition (New York), 17 January 1917; New-York Tribune, 18 January 1917; Admiralty's Merchant Shipping (Losses); de Kerbrech's Ships of the White Star Line; Anderson's White Star; Summers' White Star officer record.)
