Dogs

[dirk danschutter]

Sorry but it seems you do not understand. Many parts of Titanic story have come out by years of research. The Goldenberg part is something new. The Astor biography on ET is not final and many biographies had been updated since new sources came up. I am researching Titanic's story for about 30 years now and find always something new. The part about the animals aboard is something I have collected information for years (as did some other researchers).
As for Mrs. Astor, she lost her husband while she was awaiting a child of him. I think this is more trauma than talking of a dog or correcting press reports about only Kitty.
How do you know it was Carters Airedale Mrs. Goldenberg saw?! What is your primary source for it? Mrs. Goldenberg by the way was in the 2nd lifeboat which left the sinking ship which was No. 5. Long before the story about Astor releasing the dogs from the kennels which was close to the end of the sinking.
You do not agree that Mrs. Goldenberg mention a 2nd dog for the Astors but take is as a fact the made up story about Isham?!

Hello again,

I am not accepting the Isham story as a fact, I wouldn't dare anymore (LOL). The story of lady Isham is not proven and there seem to be no relatives anymore who might contribute with a testimonial based opinion. Nevertheless, as long as the (final) dogcount of the Titanic is unclear or unestablished with certainty - with people recognizing the muzzle of a mystery dog in a collapsible lifeboat - why should we not accept then what Joanna Stunke saw from the Bremen? Okay, agreed 100%, you have a point, there is no reason whatsoever to claim Stunke saw miss Isham floating amidst the surface debris field, but she and some others I believe, believed they saw a "shaggy dog", or even a St Bernard. Can you please explain me then, why the mystery dog in the collapsible is considered a fact? And not a mere artefact or some early photograph grain inpurety caused by harsh temperature conditions and salt water? The "animal" even has a red arrow pointing to him!!?? And why is the opinion of Mrs Stunke a priori wrong and therefore a fur coat (apparently considered as such by researchers?).
As a scientist in disaster medicine & management I don't understand the fundamentals for this kind of decisioneering. Or you start with an H1 that what is testified is true unless otherwise proven, or you state as H1 that every testimonial is false unless proven true. But you don't mix starting acceptances from black to white in the same (kind of) retrospective analysis of data...
And, of course Mrs Madeleine Talmadge Force was NOT in the mood to correct or to comment on the amount of Airedales they had on board of the Titanic, that would be insane (btw she did not communicate with the press for years I believe) when she just lost her husband, with a 5 mo pregnancy in her belly... But the lady lived on for 30 years!!!!! She remarried twice, she got more children than just this "Titanic baby", she had grandchildren (who still live today). She has had some or plenty opportunity to share a little or much on what happened April 15th - and way before - with young family members around... Why not? What I am tempting now, is to contact relatives of the Astor dynasty, and if they are willing to answer me, I will ask them what they recall of stories told by grandmother... After all, the love of JJ Astor for a dog, especially in the early nineties - was highly exceptional! I did not cross yet another story about such devotion for a dog (with such financial implications in Egypt), so this might have been something very noble, worth telling grandchildren, about the exceptional grandfather they had... I remember stories of soldiers guarding bridges in the Alps, dodging and leaping away to avoid howling Stuka raids - and it was nothing else but tales from my granddads... But I remember them as if I was part of it...
So let us make a deal, I sincerely hope that an Astor-Force relative is willing to answer me. If I come up with something and I am allowed to share it: I will honestly do so!

Sincerely,
Dirk

 

[dirk danschutter]

Well there have been days when I've seen things that I liked dogs more than people. Maybe for whatever reason that was one of those days for him. But should a dog take up a space for a person...No. Well ok, maybe some people.

One of the most famous stories about this dilemma - accepting a dog on board of a vessel over a human - is the evacuation of Athens. You certainly learned sometimes about the battle of Thermopyles (the battle at the "hot sources"), where the Spartan King Leonidas, together with 300 of his Spartans and some 700, perhaps 1,000, Thespians, blocked the Persian invasion of king Xerxes. In what is reputed or famous today for being one of the most famous last stands. King Leonidas did sacrifice his life and the life of his men to give the people of Athens the time to evacuate to the island of Salamis. General (or Admiral) Xanthippes (the father of famous Pericles, "the founder of Athens") led an armada of trimeres to evacuate, to rescue from the Persian invader, as much Athenians as possible. The Athenians had gathered in the port and on the beaches, with their belongings and livestock, but by order of the general all had to be left aside. Nothing else but human soles were allowed to board the trimeres. The general himself had a dog he loved very much. And he was much in doubt if his dog was to occupy the place of 1 Athenian. So he refused his dog on board and explained the animal that it should run free, over the mountains, and wait or search for him. However, instead the dog leaped into the sea and followed the trimere of the general. The distance between Athens and Salamis was impossible for a dog to overcome, but the animal succeeded in its effort, encouraged by the shouting Athenians on board. Even the general started to believe that this incredible dog would succeed in its effort.
When the trimere beached at Salamis, the general leaped out of the boat and rushed towards his beloved dog, only to find that the dog was dying in his arms from deadly exhaustion... The general was in very deep grief, he burried his dog on the spot and a monument was erected.
Till today, this place on the beach of Salamis is known as "kynossema", which translates as "statue of the dog"...

Sincerely,
Dirk

 

[dirk danschutter]

OMG I didn’t know this. Poor horses and mules

That’s a nice memorial. I always wear a purple poppy as well as a red one at Remembrance time.

Survivor William Greenfields said he was - 'more disturbed by the barks and cries from the dogs than the cries of the people'. Let us hope none of them suffered for long. Reminds me of the many animal transport ships that sank in WW1 e.g. SS Mount Temple sank with over 700 horses drowned, and the SS Armenian sank with over 1,400 mules drowned. The loss of life was high for both humans and animals. There are quite a few memorials to remember the animals lost in wartime.

View attachment 43730

from: The Dogs of Napoleon Bonaparte

Emmanuel, the Comte de Las Cases, was the French historian to whom Napoleon dictated his memoirs. He transcribed Napoleon's recollection of the night after the Battle of Bassano, during his Italian campaign. The general was walking across the battlefield, which was covered with the corpses of those who had fallen just a few hours before. He remembered it this way:

"We were alone, in the deep solitude of a beautiful moonlit night. Suddenly a dog leaped out from under the cloak of a corpse. He came running toward us and then, almost immediately afterward ran back to his dead master, howling piteously. He licked the soldier's unfeeling face, then ran back to us — repeating this several times. He was seeking both help and revenge. I don't know whether it was the mood of the moment, or the place, or the time, or the action in itself, or what — at any rate, it's a fact that nothing I saw on any other battlefield ever produced a like impression on me. I stopped involuntarily to contemplate this spectacle. This man, I said to myself, has friend, perhaps. He may have some at the camp, in his company — and here he lies, abandoned by all except his dog. What a lesson nature was teaching us through an animal. What a strange thing is man! How mysterious are the workings of his sensibility! I had commanded in battles that were to decide the fate of a whole army, and had felt no emotion. I had watched the execution of manoeuvres that were bound to cost the lives of many among us, and my eyes had remained dry.

And suddenly I was shaken, turned inside out, by a dog howling in pain!"

 

[Ioannis Georgiou]

Hello, thanks for you reply.

Can you please explain me then, why the mystery dog in the collapsible is considered a fact?

No I can not, as it has not been considered as a fact. I don't know any researcher who took it serious.

And why is the opinion of Mrs Stunke a priori wrong and therefore a fur coat (apparently considered as such by researchers?).

I do not think it is wrong. Some among me believe she saw a "shaggy dog" (the St. Bernard part might be a addition by the press) but some have mentioned the believe it might have been a fur coat which she might have mistaken in the distance for a dog.

So let us make a deal, I sincerely hope that an Astor-Force relative is willing to answer me. If I come up with something and I am allowed to share it: I will honestly do so!

That would be great, thanks!

 

[Steven Christian]

One of the most famous stories about this dilemma - accepting a dog on board of a vessel over a human - is the evacuation of Athens. You certainly learned sometimes about the battle of Thermopyles (the battle at the "hot sources"), where the Spartan King Leonidas, together with 300 of his Spartans and some 700, perhaps 1,000, Thespians, blocked the Persian invasion of king Xerxes. In what is reputed or famous today for being one of the most famous last stands. King Leonidas did sacrifice his life and the life of his men to give the people of Athens the time to evacuate to the island of Salamis. General (or Admiral) Xanthippes (the father of famous Pericles, "the founder of Athens") led an armada of trimeres to evacuate, to rescue from the Persian invader, as much Athenians as possible. The Athenians had gathered in the port and on the beaches, with their belongings and livestock, but by order of the general all had to be left aside. Nothing else but human soles were allowed to board the trimeres. The general himself had a dog he loved very much. And he was much in doubt if his dog was to occupy the place of 1 Athenian. So he refused his dog on board and explained the animal that it should run free, over the mountains, and wait or search for him. However, instead the dog leaped into the sea and followed the trimere of the general. The distance between Athens and Salamis was impossible for a dog to overcome, but the animal succeeded in its effort, encouraged by the shouting Athenians on board. Even the general started to believe that this incredible dog would succeed in its effort.
When the trimere beached at Salamis, the general leaped out of the boat and rushed towards his beloved dog, only to find that the dog was dying in his arms from deadly exhaustion... The general was in very deep grief, he burried his dog on the spot and a monument was erected.
Till today, this place on the beach of Salamis is known as "kynossema", which translates as "statue of the dog"...

Sincerely,
Dirk

I am familar with the battle of Thermopylae. Its the classic stand and do your duty saga of history. But I didn't know that aspect of the story about the generals dog and the evacuation. Thanks for posting it...very interesting.