dirk danschutter
Member
Sorry but it seems you do not understand. Many parts of Titanic story have come out by years of research. The Goldenberg part is something new. The Astor biography on ET is not final and many biographies had been updated since new sources came up. I am researching Titanic's story for about 30 years now and find always something new. The part about the animals aboard is something I have collected information for years (as did some other researchers).
As for Mrs. Astor, she lost her husband while she was awaiting a child of him. I think this is more trauma than talking of a dog or correcting press reports about only Kitty.
How do you know it was Carters Airedale Mrs. Goldenberg saw?! What is your primary source for it? Mrs. Goldenberg by the way was in the 2nd lifeboat which left the sinking ship which was No. 5. Long before the story about Astor releasing the dogs from the kennels which was close to the end of the sinking.
You do not agree that Mrs. Goldenberg mention a 2nd dog for the Astors but take is as a fact the made up story about Isham?!
Hello again,
I am not accepting the Isham story as a fact, I wouldn't dare anymore (LOL). The story of lady Isham is not proven and there seem to be no relatives anymore who might contribute with a testimonial based opinion. Nevertheless, as long as the (final) dogcount of the Titanic is unclear or unestablished with certainty - with people recognizing the muzzle of a mystery dog in a collapsible lifeboat - why should we not accept then what Joanna Stunke saw from the Bremen? Okay, agreed 100%, you have a point, there is no reason whatsoever to claim Stunke saw miss Isham floating amidst the surface debris field, but she and some others I believe, believed they saw a "shaggy dog", or even a St Bernard. Can you please explain me then, why the mystery dog in the collapsible is considered a fact? And not a mere artefact or some early photograph grain inpurety caused by harsh temperature conditions and salt water? The "animal" even has a red arrow pointing to him!!?? And why is the opinion of Mrs Stunke a priori wrong and therefore a fur coat (apparently considered as such by researchers?).
As a scientist in disaster medicine & management I don't understand the fundamentals for this kind of decisioneering. Or you start with an H1 that what is testified is true unless otherwise proven, or you state as H1 that every testimonial is false unless proven true. But you don't mix starting acceptances from black to white in the same (kind of) retrospective analysis of data...
And, of course Mrs Madeleine Talmadge Force was NOT in the mood to correct or to comment on the amount of Airedales they had on board of the Titanic, that would be insane (btw she did not communicate with the press for years I believe) when she just lost her husband, with a 5 mo pregnancy in her belly... But the lady lived on for 30 years!!!!! She remarried twice, she got more children than just this "Titanic baby", she had grandchildren (who still live today). She has had some or plenty opportunity to share a little or much on what happened April 15th - and way before - with young family members around... Why not? What I am tempting now, is to contact relatives of the Astor dynasty, and if they are willing to answer me, I will ask them what they recall of stories told by grandmother... After all, the love of JJ Astor for a dog, especially in the early nineties - was highly exceptional! I did not cross yet another story about such devotion for a dog (with such financial implications in Egypt), so this might have been something very noble, worth telling grandchildren, about the exceptional grandfather they had... I remember stories of soldiers guarding bridges in the Alps, dodging and leaping away to avoid howling Stuka raids - and it was nothing else but tales from my granddads... But I remember them as if I was part of it...
So let us make a deal, I sincerely hope that an Astor-Force relative is willing to answer me. If I come up with something and I am allowed to share it: I will honestly do so!
Sincerely,
Dirk