Exact time of sinking

Of course I know what Smith was thinking in the few minutes after he had received the first verbal report from his First Officer. I know it because unlike you I'm a trained Captain and that's what any trained captain would think and do given the same information.

Sir, I most certainly hope you would not drive your boat around and try and position it for the best possible course to sink on.

By 10 minutes, Smith saw that the ship was listing 5° to starboard. And you expect us to believe he was issuing orders to turn the ship's head back on her course line for NY before hearing back from those sent to find out what damage, if any, was sustained?

That is the most logical thing I've seen in this back n forth. Folks can him and haw about "testimony" till you turn blue, but the two BOI's, insofar as Titanic was concerned were ridiculous. They are filled with inaccuracies, fabrications, understandably faulty memories during an unimaginable disaster, and people simply covering their ass. To attribute any follow-on info based on those proceedings is a fools errand. Yes, I'm a mariner too, and the statement by Sam is simply the most logical course of action a man with the experiece of Capt. Smith would take.


Plainly Smith operated the telegraphs

Totally illogical. No evidence. He just wasn't they type of Captain to go running into the wheelhouse and start ringing up bell orders. The scientific evidence shows the ship would have started taking on a list (very noticable to Smith) within 5 minutes of the collision. He damn well knew how much trouble he was in regardless of who was sounding this or who was finding who.

Simply put...moving that ship was the last thing on his mind.
 
Hello there rcolosi!

It is Sam who advocates that Smith moved the ship off location to find a suitable spot to launch the lifeboats, not me.
I simply believe that Captain Smith turned the ship's head without moving off the location. If you've been on the bridge of a ship you will know the procedure

Sam said the ship had a 5 degree list 10 minutes, not 5 minutes after impact. All engine movements were completed 6 minutes after impact.
QM Hichens told the US people that the Captain looked at the comutator (clynometer) 5 to 10 minutes after impact.
In the UK, he told them:
"1043. That is enough - as near as you can; it was after 12?
- Yes, the Captain then looked at the commutator and he found that the ship was carrying a list to starboard."


Re-read the evidence. Up until 10 minutes after impact, Captain Smith and every one else thought the ship had a narrow escape and that the damage was minor. The ship dis not take on much of a list before that.

There is clear evidence that Smith rang the telegraphs; QM Olliver said he saw him do it. Very many times I have rung the telegraphs and given a helm order. What ships were you on?

Jim C.
 
Hi Jim,

The bow did not rotate during the tank tests but that does not mean that it would have behaved in exactly the same way while descending through water of different temperatures and densities. If the bow did actualy behave in reality as it did in the tests then that would suggests that there were no upper, mid or sea-bed currents effecting it.

the tank tests are meanwhile partly out of date. However, they are right that the bow did not rotate or went in a spiral down. It was more a straight fall were the forward part and the aft part (breaking point) try to stabilise himself.

In reality, if there had been a southward-setting current as has been promoted by very many researchers and that current was running at 1 knot + then Titanic would never have remained heading North. Even if she had originally been turned North as promoted by Sam. she would have more than likely continued turning toward the east then lay beam-on with her port side presented to the current. If she had been facing anywhere to the left (west) of North, the current would have pushed her bow back round until she was once again heading about West.

There was a southward current. Actually the total area of the wreck side show that and also that there was no other influence by the current. All the debris behind the forward part is going towards the south and are spread like in a circle which was a result of the rotating stern. The bow show in the direction of NNE which would mean that she was showing towards N.
As you sure know the can be some non or a heavy current in the different depths. When Titanic sunk there was no much current above or on the bottom. There had been some dives made when there was a very strong current on the bottom. The sediment was "presses" out of the large openings (like the hole of the grant staircase) making it look as if the wreck was smoking.

However, there was no current which would have turned the bow towards NNE if Titanic stopped showing W. If a current would have done that (turning from W to NNE)then several other wreck pieces would have been put in that direction. The only debris around and forward of the bow is that what was pushed there when the bow hit the bottom like the hatch from hold No. 1 which comes to rest several feet in front of the bow.

I am sorry, my English is not good enough to go into detail or to explain it better.


It is Sam who advocates that Smith moved the ship off location to find a suitable spot to launch the lifeboats, not me.

I also believe that Smith moved the ship again as stated by QM Olliver. I don't know why, if it was for the lifeboats or if Smith made a "mistake" and believed that there was no damage done (there were at last about 10 minutes before he really knew that something was wrong when noticing the 5° list). Even the best Captain can make a mistake.
 
If Olliver was correct about seeing Smith moving the telegraphs ahead again after the ship had already come to a stop, I believe it had to be for a very good reason. In my opinion, a very good reason does not include putting the ship's head back onto her 265° T course line for NY while waiting for damage reports to come in. I suggested that one good reason may have been to move the ship away from some nearby ice in case lifeboats had to be launched while there was still steam presssure available to do so. The engine movement that took place was only about 2 minutes if Dillon's eyewitness account is to be believed. Moving the ship a couple of ship lengths from her original stopping point would not have negated any distress coordinates that were subsequently calculated, which were rounded to nearest whole minute of arc anyway.
 
>>Up until 10 minutes after impact, Captain Smith and every one else thought the ship had a narrow escape and that the damage was minor. <<

There is nothing in the evidence to suggest that Capt. Smith thought that the damage was minor. It certainly wasn't an narrow escape given that he felt that the ship had struck something and ordered WTDs closed as soon as he came out on the bridge. The evidence only shows that Smith immediately sought to find out what damage had been susstained. Other than that, you and anyone else have no idea what was going on in his mind.

>>By exactly the same token; there's no way Californian would have pointed any other way than eastward if there had been a south-setting current. <<

It seems that Californian is a driving force that leads some to loose their objectivity. Proof of a southward setting current comes from the location of the wreck site relative to the DR location of the wreckage given by Californian taken more than 9 hours after Titanic foundered (the latitude of which was subsequently confirmed by Frankfurt). The drift of wreckage, including overturned collapsible boat B seen amongst it, cannot be explained by windage alone. Windage would account for only about 25% of the total wreckage drift.
 
Hi all, been a while since I've posted but I've enjoyed reading the cut and thrust of this debate enormously.

As is always the way with historical research, the How, Where, What and When are far easier to objectively assess than the Why which always tends to rely on greater subjectivity.

Could a possible explanation be that the Captain wanted to turn the ship so that the damaged side (as has been discussed already, he knew one thing for certain, the ship had struck an iceberg) was in a lee. Obviously we know that there was little to no wind at all, at the time of the impact however, there was a current running so by turning the ship so that the damaged side was leeward of the current it was afforded a bit of protection. It would also be good practice if you intended to launch a boat.
 
Rob,

When the ship was stopped dead in the water, it would be moving with the surface current. Relative to the water, however, there would essentially be no movement at all.
 
Sam,

You just can't have your cake and eat it!

If you dispute the following then you have never seen a ship-shaped vessel adrift in a wind and or current. There was no current. Otherwise:

1. Titanic would have attempted to lie beam-on to it the moment she ceased fore or aft movement. She most certainly would not have lain bow or stern on to it. Nor would her bow have been able to swing across it.

2. Californian would not have continued to swing through 180 degrees as she did. She too would have eventually ended-up heading at right angle to the current. In her case, if her initial starboard swing was strong enough to allow the bow to swing through north, she would have stopped swinging when heading eastward. Otherwise she would have swung back toward the ice. Every time her stern attempted to come up into the current, the current would push it back to the southward.

3. When the wind rose with the dawn, one of the lifboat crews of a stationery boat had great difficulty keeping the boat's head to wind. They would have had the same problem with a current but make no mention of it.

Your soul evidence is the position of Californian relative to where her captain alleged he left the drifting wreckage.
The ice got there because of three elements. Intially it moved with the Labrador Current but it would also be influenced by the prevailing westerlies and northwesterlies. It would be allowed to move south because the North margine of the Gulf Stream was further south than usual for that time of year. Had it not been, the southern limits of the ice would have been further north.
You explained to Rob about the relative positions of items adrift in a current. Since they all came from the same source; where were all the bodies and other wreckage? What selectively brought these particular items of wreckage to where Captain Lord saw them? Since it was so sparse (Lord's description) might it have been chucked out of the boats as Carpathia recovered them? Have you even thought of that? If that were the case then all bets about current and wind are off because Carpathia would be doing this as she moved around.

Bottom line: What switched this mythical current off before April 14 and then back on for the Titanic affair before switching it off again after Californian had left the area?

Jim C.
 
I'll keep this short and to the point. The only reason why a ship would align itself broadside to a uniform current is because of any relative wind that is caused by the movement of the ship with the current, assuming no other wind forces exist. The ship will swing around until the point of action of the relative wind on the ship and the ship's center of lateral resistance becomes aligned. For most ship forms this will happen when the ship is within about 20° of broadside to the direction of the relative wind. The direction of relative wind is the vector sum of the true wind direction and the opposite direction of the movement of the ship on the water. But I know you know all that.

On the night of April 14/15, we know that relative wind conditions where Californian had stopped were described as "light airs and calms." Those light airs are what caused Californian to swing around the way it did, otherwise, it would have stayed pointing more or less in an eastward direction after coming to its initial stop, south setting current or no current. The evidence given by QM Rowe suggests that Titanic's bow was also swinging but very slowly through north which implies that it too was subjected to some very light realtive airs and calms.

As far the wreckage seen by Californian when she departed the area, that included the boats left behind by Carpathia. When Carpathia picked up the last boat, it was near the wreckage that included overturned boat B, something that Rostron mentioned. According to Groves, Californian searched only the area to leeward of the wreckage, and when they departed, they were within a mile of it. There is also no way for that wreckage, which included overturned boat B, to have drifted as far south as it did because of the wind that sprang up in the morning. To do so, there would have had to be a sustained wind of about 27 knots acting for almost 6 3/4 hours. That was not what was described. It was only after 8:30 that the wind reached moderate conditions according to Rostron. The drift due to windage seems to account for only about 25% of the total drift of wreckage seen, leaving the remaining 75% due to about 0.8 knots of south setting current.

As far as bodies are concerned, the downwind drift of bodies would not have been as much as the downwind drift of the floating debris that was observed from Carpathia and Californian. Neither of these vessels appeared to have bothered to search to windward of the debris that was seen. We do know that all the boats were within a radius of 4 to 5 miles from where Carpathia picked up Boxhall's boat, the first boat it came to coming up from the SE.
The downwind drift of bodies was not as much as the downwind drift of the floating debris that was observed from Carpathia and Californian. Neither of these vessels appears to have bothered to search to windward of the debris that was seen.

I know you believe otherwise, but other master mariners do not agree with you. As MAIB's Deputy Chief Inspector James De Coverly wrote: "I think there can be no reasonable doubt that a current setting about south by west at something like 1¼ knots existed in the area of the accident." The only refinement I'd make on that is establishing how much was due to actual current drift and how much due to windage.
 
Sam,

"On the night of April 14/15, we know that relative wind conditions where Californian had stopped were described as "light airs and calms." Those light airs are what caused Californian to swing around the way it did, otherwise, it would have stayed pointing more or less in an eastward direction after coming to its initial stop, south setting current or no current. The evidence given by QM Rowe suggests that Titanic's bow was also swinging but very slowly through north which implies that it too was subjected to some very light realtive airs and calms."

Obviously you have never been on a ship adrift in light airs. Or been on ship or boat moored or at anchor in light airs sans current. Let me tell you what really happens... you 'hang' then swing one way or another in a totally unpredictable way. In my last job as Harbour Master, we had a marina section with berths for private yachts and two very large buoyed areas of 'dead water' for visiting yachts. Our harbour was extremely sheltered so we had many days with flat calm and light airs, particularly when dawn and high or low water coincided because we had about 10 minutes of slack tide at that time. Because if the unpredictable behaviour of a vessel in light airs, we had to make sure that vessels moored to buoys had enough room to swing in opposite directions to each other because that's exactly what they might just do in light airs. Obviously we had to regulate vessel length using these buoys. I do know a bit about light airs.

Californian did not swing right because of the light airs, she did so because her master was a very good seaman. He applied right full rudder and went full astern on his single screw. Classic! Californian's bow would start to swing to the right very quickly under the influence of the rudder. It would then be put amidship and the stern would cant very rapidly to the left due to the transverse thrust of the propeller. In such a situation and in flat calm conditions with no current, the bow would have kept swinging to the right, through North, East then South and would have continued to do so at ever decreasing speed unless there had been a current running from the north. If such a current had been running then as soon as Californian's bow passed through North and she presented her port bow to the current, her rate of swing would have increased even faster. She would swing through East but as her bow did so, her stern would come up into the current. The current would then be greatest on the stern area and her bow swing would be checked and then would swing back toward the east. Thereafter, she would see-saw beam onto the current as she was carried southward. Her bow would never point west.
We have a saying in Scotland Sam. I suspect you have it in your part of the world too. "Never try to teach your Grannie how to suck eggs"

As for De Coverly and the Labrador Current. He performed a lazy man's analysis.

What pointers to it did he use? The presense of ice so far south? The falling water temperature?

Ice is transported by wind as well as currents. Like the debris you mentioned, different kinds of ice are effected in different ways by each. Different types of ice are transported at different speeds by the same transporting force. Normally pack ice was never seen so far south of the Grand Banks or so far away from it's birth place near to land. How did it end-up where it did? (Boxhall actually remarked on this)
De Coverly forgot that pack ice seldom, if ever co-exists with ice bergs in the open ocean. This is principally because pack ice and shallow draft floes are more effected by wind than by current whereas, bergs with big sail areas and deep drafts have the best of both worlds. He and everyone else should be asking the question: how did these so different types of sea ice get mixed-in together?

Then there's your favourite; the falling water temperature after Longitude 49W. A sure-fire indicator that the ships had come under the influence of a cold, south-setting current? There's an excuse for you but not De Coverly. He forgot what he was taught as a cadet.
Let me quote to you from the British sailor's " Met Bible".. Meteorology for Seamen by Commander C. R. Burgess, O.B.E., RN. FR.Met.S. and published by Brown Son & Ferguson:

" Since the temperature at which the sea freezes is about 28½°F., a temperature of 34°F. should for safety be regarded as not more than 150 miles from the ice edge, or 100 miles if there is a persistent wind blowing off the ice. Except when the wind has been blowing toward the ice edge for a day or longer, a sea temperature of 31° should usually be assumed to indicate that the nearest ice is not more than 50 miles away”

But let's keep the pretense up.

If such a current had been there, Titanic would have been set southward by it for a couple of hours before impact.
Your previous work accounts for that but it depends on Titanic making good a track rather than a course of 266 True as described by Boxhall. That is a fundimental mistake.

Modern power-driven ship's with the latest steering equipment do not follow exactly along a pre-determined course line. Even in the post WW2 years it was impossible to follow a course line exactly.
Apart from the problems that most certainly would be encountered with steering error, the change in magnetic variation of about 2/3 a degree between when Titanic turned The Corner and the time of impact would ensure she would make a course less than the steered 266 True reported by Boxhall. It might look good on paper but reality is a different kettle of fish all together.
If you care to have another look at the DR CQD worked by Captain Smith; apart from it being about 20+ miles too far ahead, it is exactly on the pre-determined course line between The Corner and the Ambrose Light vessel. In the evidence, you will find that Pitman declared the 7-30 pm fix to be 'right on the line'. It seems that Captain Smith also thought his ship was right on the line

It boils down to theory versus reality.

According to Boxhall, Titanic was 2.5 miles southwest of The Corner when she turned onto a course of 266 True at 5-50pm that evening. In theory if she rigidly steamed along that 266 True rail-track on the water then in theory she would reach a point on that track after a certain time steaming. If however, in theory she steamed through a 1 knot south setting current for the last 2 hours of her journey then in theory she would be 2 miles south of that 266 True rail track at the end of those two hours.

However In reality, Titanic could not steam down any intended fixed track. In reality, she could not steer the correct direction that would ensure that she did.
In theory, with perfect steering she would probably have made good a track of about 265.3 degrees True, not 266 dgrees True and would have impacted the iceberg at a position about 2.64 miles north of the wreck site.
In reality, she most likely made good a course of less than 265 True and hit the icberg a little under a mile north and east of the wreck site.

I guess what I'm saying to you is that all the work you, Capt De Coverley and others have done to justify the presence of a south-setting current used theory which in practice seldom if ever occurs


As for the effect of wind and current on the position of wreckage and SAR pratice: I know a thing about that too.
However, you know a thing about sail-boats. You will also know that a shallow draft, high sided open boat or the same boat with a large windage due to being full of people will be very much influenced by the wind, even a light wind. If such a boat is helpless in a wind, she will broach-to and pick up speed down-wind very quickly.
5th Officer Lowe sailed his lifeboat smartly at about 4 to 6 knots. How much wind do you think would be needed to propel such a boat at that speed?
Wind and weather apart, there's the original position of the wreckage and boats to consider and the fact that most of these boats did not remain in the same place from sinking time to rescue time. As Rostron described: they were all over the place within a range of 4 to 5 miles. He steamed among them and recovered them one by one. As he did so, many bits and pieces of jestsam were chucked out of the boats. Lifejackets were removed and discarded. Planks fell from boats as they were drained etc. He did not come up to the main wreckage until he recovered that last boat at about 7-45am that morning. Where di he go or what did he do between then and when Californian came up to him?

The evidence of Major Peuchin who was in boat 4 with Hichens is very enlightening. He mentions and describes wind drift but does not mention current. He also states that he saw two distinct islands of main wreckage including the barber's pole but this was some time after Carpathia left Californian..

Where was that relative to Californian who was steaming southward after Carpathia left?

There is no way that theoretical steering, courses made good, winds and currents can acount for what really happend to the wreckage and bodies from Titanic in the hours immediately following the sinking.

In any case, this is about the exact time of sinking. I'll deal with that next.


Jim C.
 
>>Obviously you have never been on a ship adrift in light airs. Or been on ship or boat moored or at anchor in light airs sans current.<<

Assumptions can be dangerous.

Besides De Coverly you can add Capt. Thomas Barnett to your list of those who do a lazy man's analysis.
 
Assumptions are the last resort in the absence of proof to the contrary.

Thomas Barnett is the man who came to the conclusion that " the Titanic was seen by the Californian and indeed kept under observation from 23:00 or soon after on 14 April until she sank," and that "he based this view on the evidence from Captain Lord and the two watch officers."

Even you don't believe that Sam so what's your point?"

Jim C.
 
As usual, the last encounter with Sam was side-tracked. That was as much my fault as anyone elses' so let me make amends.

This thread is about the 'exact time of sinking'. The exact time of sinking is most important because from it we can work back to the exact time of hitting the iceberg.
The exact time of hitting the iceberg is even more important because from it, we can deduce many things. Principally the navigation of Titanic from Noon April 15 until she finally sank. We can determine her speed and we can also get a far better idea as to why 2nd Officer Boxhall's distress position was so far out.

In order to proceed, I must make one assumption and that is that the times of sinking and of hitting the iceberg came from time-pieces which were synchronised i.e. showing the same time. This being the case then, from the time she hit the icberg until she finally sank, she was on the surface for 2 hours and 40 minutes.

Anyone who has read this argument ad nauseum, will know that Sam believes the clocks were not adjusted before the time of impact and that I believe they were.
We have argued back and forth about passenger time pieces and officer remarks about about being nearly time to go on Watch etc. The evidence on both sides is compelling. However, there is a single piece of evidence which, if it cannot be discounted, clearly points to the clocks having been set back the required amount BEFORE Titanic hit that ice berg. It comes from Greaser Alfred White, he of dummy funnel fame:

"I was on the whale deck in the bow calling the watch that was to relieve when the ice first came aboard. The collision opened the seams below the water-line but did not even scratch the paint above the line. I know that because I was one of those who helped to make an examination over the side with a lantern. I went down into the engine-room at 12:40am. We even made coffee, so there was not much thought of danger. An hour later I was still working at the light engines. I heard the chief engineer tell one of his subordinates that number six bulkhead had given way. At that time things began to look bad… I was told to go up and see how things were, and made my way up a dummy funnel to the bridge deck. By that time all the boats had left the ship, yet everyone in the engine-room was at his post. I was near the captain and heard him say, ‘Well boys, it’s every man for himself now."

Alfred was on the 8pm to midnight Watch in the engine room. The first part of the above narrative is of the utmost importance to this argument.
It was ( and still is) normal practice to send a non-essential hand to call the relieving Watch at One (1) bell, 15 minutes before Watch changeover time. The hand chosen to do this normally leaves his post 20 minutes before the end of a Watch and makes his way to the off-duty hands' accommodation. Once there, he will make sure there's boiling water for tea or coffee. Then at 15 minutes to the hour, he goes round wakening-up the next crowd with the call of "One bell lads" or such like.
The end of Alfred's Watch in this instance would have been when he and his mates had served the full term of the Watch including any extra minutes due to a clock adjustment. He would not have been 'on the whale deck'..under the forecastlehead.. any earlier than was necessary. An earlier than necessary call by him would have resulted in mayhem as well as a huge number of people hanging about for ages with nothing to do.
Therefore the ship's working clocks had been set back the appropriate amount before the moment when the ship hit the iceberg. With this information, we can now establish the exact time of impact and subsequently the exact time of sinking.

Titanic's working clocks were set at Noon on April 14. At that time they were 2 hours 58 minutes SLOW of GMT and 2 hours 2 minutes FAST of EST (New York). Allowing for an adjustment of 24 minutes before impact, time of impact was:

11-40pm April 14, ship.
03-02am April 15, GMT
10-02pm April 14, EST

2 hours and 40 minutes later, when the ship disappeared below the surface, the exact times of sinking would have been:

02-20am April 15, ship.
05-42am April 15, GMT.
00-42am April 15, EST (New York).

Proof of that last time can be seen on a chronometer recovered from the wreck which had stopped 2 minutes and 40 seconds before the last of the ship was seen above the surface of the sea.

Jim.
 
Anyone who has read this argument ad nauseum, will know that Sam believes the clocks were not adjusted before the time of impact and that I believe they were.
We have argued back and forth about passenger time pieces and officer remarks about about being nearly time to go on Watch etc. The evidence on both sides is compelling. However, there is a single piece of evidence which, if it cannot be discounted, clearly points to the clocks having been set back the required amount BEFORE Titanic hit that ice berg. It comes from Greaser Alfred White, he of dummy funnel fame:

"I was on the whale deck in the bow calling the watch that was to relieve when the ice first came aboard. The collision opened the seams below the water-line but did not even scratch the paint above the line. I know that because I was one of those who helped to make an examination over the side with a lantern. I went down into the engine-room at 12:40am. We even made coffee, so there was not much thought of danger. An hour later I was still working at the light engines. I heard the chief engineer tell one of his subordinates that number six bulkhead had given way. At that time things began to look bad… I was told to go up and see how things were, and made my way up a dummy funnel to the bridge deck. By that time all the boats had left the ship, yet everyone in the engine-room was at his post. I was near the captain and heard him say, ‘Well boys, it’s every man for himself now."

Alfred was on the 8pm to midnight Watch in the engine room. The first part of the above narrative is of the utmost importance to this argument.
It was ( and still is) normal practice to send a non-essential hand to call the relieving Watch at One (1) bell, 15 minutes before Watch changeover time. The hand chosen to do this normally leaves his post 20 minutes before the end of a Watch and makes his way to the off-duty hands' accommodation. Once there, he will make sure there's boiling water for tea or coffee. Then at 15 minutes to the hour, he goes round wakening-up the next crowd with the call of "One bell lads" or such like.
The end of Alfred's Watch in this instance would have been when he and his mates had served the full term of the Watch including any extra minutes due to a clock adjustment. He would not have been 'on the whale deck'..under the forecastlehead.. any earlier than was necessary. An earlier than necessary call by him would have resulted in mayhem as well as a huge number of people hanging about for ages with nothing to do.
Therefore the ship's working clocks had been set back the appropriate amount before the moment when the ship hit the iceberg. With this information, we can now establish the exact time of impact and subsequently the exact time of sinking./QUOTE]

I find it Interesting Jim how you use "bad" newspaper reports to proof your view. In total there are about 6 newspaper reports (at last 6 known to me) were the story always change. And by the way this one you quote is made up.

P.S.: From what I know White was listed at the 4 to 8 watch.
 
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