Arun Vajpey
Member
I think that is the understatement of the century. I feel that sooner this thread is closed the better for everyone's sanity.
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Possible setback of clocks before collision
- Thread starter Christophe Puttemans
- Start date
Jim Currie
Member
Sorry to say, Sam but that last bit of waffle is not up to your usually high standard. If you would, as I do, pull the counter argument to pieces then we could give Arun a break and we could all go home with an answer. Instead, you have added-in yet another bit of smoke screen with your observation that
"The collision and sinking times, however, were new, and that is why I decided to post this information here."
So where did these new bits of evidence come from?
You write:
"But the assignment of 10:06pm and 12:41am for the NY times of collision and foundering in the WSL response happens to be a difference of 1h 39m, with ship's time ahead of NY. This is the same as clocks being 3h 21m behind GMT. "
Yes, Sam, that's correct and the reason is obvious; they were using altered time, not April 14 time.
Strictly speaking, we do not need to go into the pros and cons of sinking time because the mystery person who supplied that New York impact time of 10-06 pm obviously knew or had (unlike you) Sam, been convinced that the ship's clocks had been partially set back before Titanic hit the iceberg.
Perhaps a little spread sheet might make things clearer to the confused? Consider the following, it shows two Tables... the first is times including a 24 minute set back to the clock. The second...'B'... is unchanged April 14 Times. Not too hard to understand but clearly shows that those who provided the time of 10-06 pm as the time of collision with the iceberg were working in partly adjusted time. This is not rocket science lads... simple common sense.
"The collision and sinking times, however, were new, and that is why I decided to post this information here."
So where did these new bits of evidence come from?
You write:
"But the assignment of 10:06pm and 12:41am for the NY times of collision and foundering in the WSL response happens to be a difference of 1h 39m, with ship's time ahead of NY. This is the same as clocks being 3h 21m behind GMT. "
Yes, Sam, that's correct and the reason is obvious; they were using altered time, not April 14 time.
Strictly speaking, we do not need to go into the pros and cons of sinking time because the mystery person who supplied that New York impact time of 10-06 pm obviously knew or had (unlike you) Sam, been convinced that the ship's clocks had been partially set back before Titanic hit the iceberg.
Perhaps a little spread sheet might make things clearer to the confused? Consider the following, it shows two Tables... the first is times including a 24 minute set back to the clock. The second...'B'... is unchanged April 14 Times. Not too hard to understand but clearly shows that those who provided the time of 10-06 pm as the time of collision with the iceberg were working in partly adjusted time. This is not rocket science lads... simple common sense.
David G. Brown
RIP
There are at least two places where truth has no special standing: The news media and courts of law. Editors in 1912 knew that the more lured the story, the more papers would sell. That’s why the hired rewrite men to “punch up” the stories sent in by field reporters. The Limitation of Liability hearings fell into a special kind of court, Admiralty. Despite the high-falutin’ name, it was no different than any other in that money talks and truth perp walks. You can bet your caboose that more time, money, and effort went into creating the White Star Line timing of events than all of us here have spent in concert debating the subject. The goal of the company lawyers was not enlightenment, but to protect their client from monetary loss. Confusing the confusion and even adding a bit to it served their purpose...er..pardon the pun...”admirably.”
All of this discussion would have been rendered moot simply by reducing the times of all events to Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). This was, in fact, the required procedure for IMM/White Star Lines for logging events at sea. Article 116 of the company rule book says, “...When passing points and ships at sea, either eastbound or westbound, Greenwich Mean Time, as well as ship’s time must be used.” No, the rule book did not mention running down icebergs, but the intent of the wording is quite clear. Events at sea were to be logged in GMT as well as local ship’s time. Why, then, did the company through its lawyers change to New York time which, by the company rules, was not to be used in mid-ocean? It surely was not done to make things clear and precise.
Confusing the issued with New York time was a way of hiding the truth in plain sight. Those of us who have been sorting Titanic times for years have all made an error or two along the way. Any court seeking the truth would have cut the nightsoil and forced everyone to use GMT. But, that would have made the truth decipherable even to the chronological curmudgeons of this august forum. But, truth was not the goal. Historical accuracy was damned to the dustbin. And we go on arguing as a result. Well, it does serve to keep our lives a little more interesting on long winter evenings...
-- David G. Brown
All of this discussion would have been rendered moot simply by reducing the times of all events to Greenwich Mean Time (GMT). This was, in fact, the required procedure for IMM/White Star Lines for logging events at sea. Article 116 of the company rule book says, “...When passing points and ships at sea, either eastbound or westbound, Greenwich Mean Time, as well as ship’s time must be used.” No, the rule book did not mention running down icebergs, but the intent of the wording is quite clear. Events at sea were to be logged in GMT as well as local ship’s time. Why, then, did the company through its lawyers change to New York time which, by the company rules, was not to be used in mid-ocean? It surely was not done to make things clear and precise.
Confusing the issued with New York time was a way of hiding the truth in plain sight. Those of us who have been sorting Titanic times for years have all made an error or two along the way. Any court seeking the truth would have cut the nightsoil and forced everyone to use GMT. But, that would have made the truth decipherable even to the chronological curmudgeons of this august forum. But, truth was not the goal. Historical accuracy was damned to the dustbin. And we go on arguing as a result. Well, it does serve to keep our lives a little more interesting on long winter evenings...
-- David G. Brown
Jim Currie
Member
I think the use of EST instead of GMT was because of the initiation of legal action. I quote:
" To the Honorable THE JUDGES of the District Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York:
The petition of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited, owner of the steamship Titanic, in a cause of limitation of liability, civil and maritime, alleges, on information and belief, as follows:"
I suggest that the use of GMT would have caused the Honourable Judges no end of confusion.... even more than there is in these pages.
" To the Honorable THE JUDGES of the District Court of the United States for the Southern District of New York:
The petition of the Oceanic Steam Navigation Company, Limited, owner of the steamship Titanic, in a cause of limitation of liability, civil and maritime, alleges, on information and belief, as follows:"
I suggest that the use of GMT would have caused the Honourable Judges no end of confusion.... even more than there is in these pages.
Samuel Halpern
Member
They had no choice David. They were specifically asked to provide answers to those two questions asked in NY time. The verbatim questions read:
Q7. "What was the day and New York time when the Titanic collided with the iceberg?"
Q8. "What was the day and New York time at the time the Titanic foundered?"
The verbatim answers were:
A7. "April 14, 1912; about 10:06 p.m., 75th meridian (New York) time."
A8. "April 15, 1912; about 12:41 a.m., 75th meridian (New York) time."
To get to GMT just add 5 hours to each answer. It's that simple.
Samuel Halpern
Member
The more I look into all of this the more I'm convinced that the problem of time is intimately connected with the erroneous CQD position that is attributed to 4/O Boxhall. This also leads to the claim maintained by the WSL, in answer to Q26 above, that the ship ran about 10 miles further southwestward before turning westward onto a S86W true heading. Both Boxhall and 3/O Pitman claimed the ship ran an appreciable amount of time beyond where she was supposed to have turned if the intent was to turn the corner at 42N, 47W. They also said that the course was altered at 5:50pm. Boxhall would not say how much longer the ship ran past the corner, only that it was "considerable," but Pitman said he thought the ship should have turned about 5pm (BI 15183), or 3/4 hour before her course was actually altered (BI 15215). A run of 3/4 hours is about 16 miles.
If you start from the Boxhall SOS position on go on the reciprocal of the ship's course heading for 5h 56m (from 11:46pm back to 5:50pm) at 22 knots, you will end up at 41° 55'N, 47° 19'W for 5:50pm, the time both Pitman and Boxhall said the ship altered her course to the west. That location happens to be about 15 miles from the corner point at 42N, 47W. Notice that I did NOT include any clock adjustments in between.
Something to think about.
If you start from the Boxhall SOS position on go on the reciprocal of the ship's course heading for 5h 56m (from 11:46pm back to 5:50pm) at 22 knots, you will end up at 41° 55'N, 47° 19'W for 5:50pm, the time both Pitman and Boxhall said the ship altered her course to the west. That location happens to be about 15 miles from the corner point at 42N, 47W. Notice that I did NOT include any clock adjustments in between.
Something to think about.
Here is only one conclusion - erroneous speed used by Boxhall and Pitman. 22 knots.
They thought that with the speed 22 knots the ship should turn earlier than she did.
BR
Alex
Remaining the version that the Captain kept the passengers disoriented re actual time intentionally to create an image of the highest speed which caused inconsistencies on the corner, in CQD position and all other clock gaps.
Samuel Halpern
Member
Conclusion number 2. They both lied at the British investigation.
Back in America, during the US Senate investigation, Pitman had this to say:
Senator FLETCHER. Do you know any such designation as the "corner?"
Mr. PITMAN. Yes, we were supposed to be at the corner at 5.50.
Senator FLETCHER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. PITMAN. That is 47 west and 42 north.
Senator FLETCHER. At 5.50 p. m. you turned what you call the "corner?''
Mr. PITMAN. The corner, yes.
Then a few weeks later:
15182. But you say he gave instructions to alter the course of the ship? - The course was altered at 5.50. They were the Commander’s orders.
15183. Ten miles further south. Was any record made of that at the time? - No, and I thought that the course should have been altered at 5 p.m..
15184. Why did you think so? - Judging from the distance run from noon.
We know from multiple sources that the mileage run since leaving Queenstown adds up to a total of 1549 nautical miles, leaving about 126 miles left to reach the corner when the ship was at local apparent noon April 14th. To be in the vicinity of the corner about 5pm would require a speed of about 25 knots. Not possible.
Another interesting observation is Lightoller's claim that he thought the ship should reach a longitude of 49°W by about 9:30pm. The time from 5:50pm to 9:30pm is 3h 40m, which at about 22 knots, is a run of about 80 miles. That is a change in longitude of 107 minutes-of-arc westward. If we add that to the longitude of the delayed turn position that was derived in post #457 above, we get to a longitude of 49° 06'W for 9:30pm. It seems Lightoller was buying into the delayed turn story.
More fun and games.
Back in America, during the US Senate investigation, Pitman had this to say:
Senator FLETCHER. Do you know any such designation as the "corner?"
Mr. PITMAN. Yes, we were supposed to be at the corner at 5.50.
Senator FLETCHER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. PITMAN. That is 47 west and 42 north.
Senator FLETCHER. At 5.50 p. m. you turned what you call the "corner?''
Mr. PITMAN. The corner, yes.
Then a few weeks later:
15182. But you say he gave instructions to alter the course of the ship? - The course was altered at 5.50. They were the Commander’s orders.
15183. Ten miles further south. Was any record made of that at the time? - No, and I thought that the course should have been altered at 5 p.m..
15184. Why did you think so? - Judging from the distance run from noon.
We know from multiple sources that the mileage run since leaving Queenstown adds up to a total of 1549 nautical miles, leaving about 126 miles left to reach the corner when the ship was at local apparent noon April 14th. To be in the vicinity of the corner about 5pm would require a speed of about 25 knots. Not possible.
Another interesting observation is Lightoller's claim that he thought the ship should reach a longitude of 49°W by about 9:30pm. The time from 5:50pm to 9:30pm is 3h 40m, which at about 22 knots, is a run of about 80 miles. That is a change in longitude of 107 minutes-of-arc westward. If we add that to the longitude of the delayed turn position that was derived in post #457 above, we get to a longitude of 49° 06'W for 9:30pm. It seems Lightoller was buying into the delayed turn story.
More fun and games.
Jim Currie
Member
This should probably be written under a different heading, Sam but since it very closely ties-in with speed and subsequently, time, I'll forge a head. Forgive arithmetic errors if found.
Look at the problem logically in light of all the available evidence. Forget about Boxhall's erroneous CQD for the moment and concentrate on all available evidence between Noon April 13 and 7-30 pm sights on April 14.
Before considering the conception of speed in the eyes of Titanic's officers let's set the scene.
Between Noon April 13 and Noon April 14, an engine speed of 75 rpm produced an average speed of 22.1 knots for the Day's Run, even though the conditions were less that test-tank perfect. Why do you think that was? Here's what I think.
US synoptic weather maps of the North Atlantic covering Titanic's voyage show that she encountered north west to northerly winds most of the time. These were cause by two cold fronts circulating anti-clockwise round a low pressure to the north of Titanic's great circle track. Titanic was in influenced by them, one after the other, and by additional north westerly wind circulating clock-wise (how appropriate) round the center of an intensifying High Pressure area directly in her path. The period of greatest influence of these winds was between Noon April 13 and the early evening of April 14. You can check on the appropriate Weather Maps for the time.
These winds, acting on her superstructure abaft her starboard beam, would have given her and every other vessel in the area, a push, adding to speed but causing ships to be blown off course...to the south ward of any planned track.
In the past, you have counteracted the foregoing by claiming that Titanic was stemming a 1 knot current most of the way. You have backed this up with data from an old Pilot Chart showing a 1 knot current acting against Titanic all the way back across the Atlantic.
Under normal circumstances, there would certainly be a weak current acting in that direction; still is. However the current you refer to is called The North Atlantic Drift current. In the time of Titanic, it was called The West Wind Drift. It transports a shallow layer of warm Gulf Stream waters north eastward but unlike the Gulf Stream, as it's name tells you, it is a very shallow current generated by the prevailing South Westerlies and owes it's strength to the strength of the prevailing South Westerly wind blowing over a long fetch for very many hours. In fact, to avoid it, there used to be a southern track for low powered vessels and sailing ships way south of Titanic's planned track. Due to the counter-winds in the area, that surface current wasn't running during April 13 and 14; the conditions prevailing in the North Atlantic from April 11 until after April 15 would have wiped it out.
Now the consideration of distance versus speed
At Noon on April, 14, you have determined that Titanic had 126 miles to run from Noon until she would be at The Corner, her turning point. I make it 2 miles less than that but that's neither here nor there. We'll split the difference and call it 125 miles.
Captain Smith wrote in his night order book that the ship had to be turned at 5-50 pm. With 125 miles to run until then, this meant Smith used a speed of 21.5 knots to determine when to turn the ship.
3/O Pitman stubbornly kept to his belief that the speed was 'about' 21.5 knots. This means that if he thought the ship was to be turned at 5 pm then he used a distance of 107.5 miles from Noon to The Corner. That's nonsense! However, if Pitman really did think the distance to The Corner was 107.5 miles and the ship ran-on for a further 16 miles then, according to him, she turned when she had covered a distance of 107.5 + 16 = 124.5. That's close enough to where Captain Smith thought she would be.
4/O Boxhall also said there was such a big difference between when he thought Titanic should have turned and the time of 5-50 pm when she did turn. He doesn't quantify the time difference but when a speed from Noon of 22 knots was mentioned to him, he did not contradict or correct his questioner. Therefore, if we assume that Boxhall was thinking in terms of 22 knots and the captain was thinking in terms 124.5 as a distance, then we can deduce that Boxhall thought the ship should have been turned 10 minutes earlier, at 5-40 pm and consequently overshot the mark by 3.7 miles. This means that in his opinion, Titanic turned when she had covered a distance of 128 miles from Noon and she did so at about 41-58.25'N., 47-04'West. His thinking was fatally flawed and unworthy of a navigator of his experience. It was clearly based on Titanic making exactly her planned course from Noon and passing directly through the position of The Corner. As any competent navigator will tell you, the chances of that happening are zero and zilch. All that is needed is a bit of wind from any direction other than astern or a head and for the helmsman to wander off a bit here and there and you can be as much as a mile out or even more, either side. Given a steady wind abaft the beam or on the quarter plus an unknown current and it can be a lot more than that. Titanic experienced such a wind.
Now consider the foregoing with the evidence of Titanic's 5th officer, Lowe; evidence which you reject out of hand.
Lowe claimed that instead of making 22 knots or 21.5 knots from Noon, Titanic barely made 21 knots. Oh I know all your protestations about what he said at the US inquiry Sam, but the fact remains that the man quoted a speed of 20.95 knots. In fact, he was very specific about it. Of all Titanic's officers, Lowe was the only one who did not quote estimated speed due to engine revolutions.
Now, armed with the foregoing, and a couple of other facts lets go back to your last post and examine Boxhall's navigation.
First, if we accept the speed from 8 pm onward as being 22.5 knots, use the longitude of 49-56 West as where Titanic hit the iceberg and use run times of 8 pm to impact of 3 hours 40 minutes(no clock change) and 8 pm to impact 4 hours 04 minutes(change 24 minutes) we can determine alternative longitudes for the ship's position at 8 pm on the evening of April 14.
By calculation, Titanic was either at 48-01'West or 47-53 'West at 8 pm that night. The distances between these to longitudes and Boxhall's 50-14'West are 99 miles and 105 miles respectively. Now consider the following:
If Titanic had actually reached 50-14'West, her patent log would have read about 272 miles. Since we have two position for 8 pm that night, this means that at 8 pm the patent log was reading about 173 miles or 167 miles.
If, as Boxhall's evidence suggests, the patent logt read 128 at 5-50 pm when she turned, then Titanic covered a distance of 45 or 39 miles from when she did so. With a run time of 2 hours 10 minutes (5-50 pm to 8 pm) these distances equate to average speeds of 20.8 knots or 18 knots. Clearly nonsense.
However, if 5th Officer Lowe's evidence was correct, then Titanic turned when the patent log read 122.2 miles. This means that she covered a distances of 51.8 or 44.8 miles in 2 hours 10 minutes. These distances give us a choice between speeds of 23.9 knots or 20.8 knots. Which one would you chose?
Here's a little exercise for you to check-out.
If you accept the evidence of Quartermaster Rowe that Titanic hit the iceberg when the patent log read 260 miles and the evidence of 5th Officer Lowe that suggests that Titanic turned when the patent log read 122. 2 miles, then Titanic travelled a distance of 260 minus 122.2 miles = 137. 8 miles between turning and impact.
If you accept an impact position of 41-45 North, 49-56 west, run back from that position for 137.8 miles on a course of 086 True. I have done that and find that according to 5th Officer Lowe, Titanic turned at a point which was 8.7 miles x 129 True from the intended turning point...The Corner.
I don't think that any of these men 'lied' at all. They simply were asked to recall in exact detail, the situation at a previous time. Detail that they did not expect to have to remember with any great accuracy at a future date.
Look at the problem logically in light of all the available evidence. Forget about Boxhall's erroneous CQD for the moment and concentrate on all available evidence between Noon April 13 and 7-30 pm sights on April 14.
Before considering the conception of speed in the eyes of Titanic's officers let's set the scene.
Between Noon April 13 and Noon April 14, an engine speed of 75 rpm produced an average speed of 22.1 knots for the Day's Run, even though the conditions were less that test-tank perfect. Why do you think that was? Here's what I think.
US synoptic weather maps of the North Atlantic covering Titanic's voyage show that she encountered north west to northerly winds most of the time. These were cause by two cold fronts circulating anti-clockwise round a low pressure to the north of Titanic's great circle track. Titanic was in influenced by them, one after the other, and by additional north westerly wind circulating clock-wise (how appropriate) round the center of an intensifying High Pressure area directly in her path. The period of greatest influence of these winds was between Noon April 13 and the early evening of April 14. You can check on the appropriate Weather Maps for the time.
These winds, acting on her superstructure abaft her starboard beam, would have given her and every other vessel in the area, a push, adding to speed but causing ships to be blown off course...to the south ward of any planned track.
In the past, you have counteracted the foregoing by claiming that Titanic was stemming a 1 knot current most of the way. You have backed this up with data from an old Pilot Chart showing a 1 knot current acting against Titanic all the way back across the Atlantic.
Under normal circumstances, there would certainly be a weak current acting in that direction; still is. However the current you refer to is called The North Atlantic Drift current. In the time of Titanic, it was called The West Wind Drift. It transports a shallow layer of warm Gulf Stream waters north eastward but unlike the Gulf Stream, as it's name tells you, it is a very shallow current generated by the prevailing South Westerlies and owes it's strength to the strength of the prevailing South Westerly wind blowing over a long fetch for very many hours. In fact, to avoid it, there used to be a southern track for low powered vessels and sailing ships way south of Titanic's planned track. Due to the counter-winds in the area, that surface current wasn't running during April 13 and 14; the conditions prevailing in the North Atlantic from April 11 until after April 15 would have wiped it out.
Now the consideration of distance versus speed
At Noon on April, 14, you have determined that Titanic had 126 miles to run from Noon until she would be at The Corner, her turning point. I make it 2 miles less than that but that's neither here nor there. We'll split the difference and call it 125 miles.
Captain Smith wrote in his night order book that the ship had to be turned at 5-50 pm. With 125 miles to run until then, this meant Smith used a speed of 21.5 knots to determine when to turn the ship.
3/O Pitman stubbornly kept to his belief that the speed was 'about' 21.5 knots. This means that if he thought the ship was to be turned at 5 pm then he used a distance of 107.5 miles from Noon to The Corner. That's nonsense! However, if Pitman really did think the distance to The Corner was 107.5 miles and the ship ran-on for a further 16 miles then, according to him, she turned when she had covered a distance of 107.5 + 16 = 124.5. That's close enough to where Captain Smith thought she would be.
4/O Boxhall also said there was such a big difference between when he thought Titanic should have turned and the time of 5-50 pm when she did turn. He doesn't quantify the time difference but when a speed from Noon of 22 knots was mentioned to him, he did not contradict or correct his questioner. Therefore, if we assume that Boxhall was thinking in terms of 22 knots and the captain was thinking in terms 124.5 as a distance, then we can deduce that Boxhall thought the ship should have been turned 10 minutes earlier, at 5-40 pm and consequently overshot the mark by 3.7 miles. This means that in his opinion, Titanic turned when she had covered a distance of 128 miles from Noon and she did so at about 41-58.25'N., 47-04'West. His thinking was fatally flawed and unworthy of a navigator of his experience. It was clearly based on Titanic making exactly her planned course from Noon and passing directly through the position of The Corner. As any competent navigator will tell you, the chances of that happening are zero and zilch. All that is needed is a bit of wind from any direction other than astern or a head and for the helmsman to wander off a bit here and there and you can be as much as a mile out or even more, either side. Given a steady wind abaft the beam or on the quarter plus an unknown current and it can be a lot more than that. Titanic experienced such a wind.
Now consider the foregoing with the evidence of Titanic's 5th officer, Lowe; evidence which you reject out of hand.
Lowe claimed that instead of making 22 knots or 21.5 knots from Noon, Titanic barely made 21 knots. Oh I know all your protestations about what he said at the US inquiry Sam, but the fact remains that the man quoted a speed of 20.95 knots. In fact, he was very specific about it. Of all Titanic's officers, Lowe was the only one who did not quote estimated speed due to engine revolutions.
Now, armed with the foregoing, and a couple of other facts lets go back to your last post and examine Boxhall's navigation.
First, if we accept the speed from 8 pm onward as being 22.5 knots, use the longitude of 49-56 West as where Titanic hit the iceberg and use run times of 8 pm to impact of 3 hours 40 minutes(no clock change) and 8 pm to impact 4 hours 04 minutes(change 24 minutes) we can determine alternative longitudes for the ship's position at 8 pm on the evening of April 14.
By calculation, Titanic was either at 48-01'West or 47-53 'West at 8 pm that night. The distances between these to longitudes and Boxhall's 50-14'West are 99 miles and 105 miles respectively. Now consider the following:
If Titanic had actually reached 50-14'West, her patent log would have read about 272 miles. Since we have two position for 8 pm that night, this means that at 8 pm the patent log was reading about 173 miles or 167 miles.
If, as Boxhall's evidence suggests, the patent logt read 128 at 5-50 pm when she turned, then Titanic covered a distance of 45 or 39 miles from when she did so. With a run time of 2 hours 10 minutes (5-50 pm to 8 pm) these distances equate to average speeds of 20.8 knots or 18 knots. Clearly nonsense.
However, if 5th Officer Lowe's evidence was correct, then Titanic turned when the patent log read 122.2 miles. This means that she covered a distances of 51.8 or 44.8 miles in 2 hours 10 minutes. These distances give us a choice between speeds of 23.9 knots or 20.8 knots. Which one would you chose?
Here's a little exercise for you to check-out.
If you accept the evidence of Quartermaster Rowe that Titanic hit the iceberg when the patent log read 260 miles and the evidence of 5th Officer Lowe that suggests that Titanic turned when the patent log read 122. 2 miles, then Titanic travelled a distance of 260 minus 122.2 miles = 137. 8 miles between turning and impact.
If you accept an impact position of 41-45 North, 49-56 west, run back from that position for 137.8 miles on a course of 086 True. I have done that and find that according to 5th Officer Lowe, Titanic turned at a point which was 8.7 miles x 129 True from the intended turning point...The Corner.
I don't think that any of these men 'lied' at all. They simply were asked to recall in exact detail, the situation at a previous time. Detail that they did not expect to have to remember with any great accuracy at a future date.
Last edited:
OR
22.1 - 20.5 = 0.6
0.6 x 24 hours = 14.4 miles
The Captain shifted the point on the map a little bit further than it was. Paper losses.
Reported to WSL - All is fine.
Usual practice by captains when would like to meet Boss wishes and get awards.
BR
Alex
Jim Currie
Member
Not really , Alex.
The way it was and still is, done is that the total distance run by Titanic between Noon April 13 and Noon April 14 was 546 nautical miles. Normally you would divide that by 24 hours to get an average speed. However the clocks were set back 44 minutes between the two Noons therefore the ship ran 24 hours 44 minutes, You therefore have to divide the total distance run by 24.733. The answer gives you an average speed of 22.076 knots per hour. However, back in 1912, schools taught that if the decimal place was over 0.5 you 'rounded-upward' your answer to the nearest first decimal place. Thus when Pitman was asked the average speed for that day's run he gave 22.1 knots per hour. You can check this out from a memo sent by Pitman to Senator Smith.... see Day 5 of the US Inquiry.
The charts (maps) they were using was the North Atlantic western sheet. The scale in that was so small that it was would only be used to indicate fixed positions. in fact, a pencil dot might measure as mush as a mile across on such a chart.
.
The way it was and still is, done is that the total distance run by Titanic between Noon April 13 and Noon April 14 was 546 nautical miles. Normally you would divide that by 24 hours to get an average speed. However the clocks were set back 44 minutes between the two Noons therefore the ship ran 24 hours 44 minutes, You therefore have to divide the total distance run by 24.733. The answer gives you an average speed of 22.076 knots per hour. However, back in 1912, schools taught that if the decimal place was over 0.5 you 'rounded-upward' your answer to the nearest first decimal place. Thus when Pitman was asked the average speed for that day's run he gave 22.1 knots per hour. You can check this out from a memo sent by Pitman to Senator Smith.... see Day 5 of the US Inquiry.
The charts (maps) they were using was the North Atlantic western sheet. The scale in that was so small that it was would only be used to indicate fixed positions. in fact, a pencil dot might measure as mush as a mile across on such a chart.
.
Samuel Halpern
Member
>>Of all Titanic's officers, Lowe was the only one who did not quote estimated speed due to engine revolutions.<<
However, Lowe was quite clear how he got his 20.95 knots.
"I used the speed for the position at 8 o'clock, and got it by dividing the distance from noon to the corner by the time that had elapsed from noon until the time we were at the corner."
It is also obvious that Lowe used a time interval of 6 hours when he got his 20.95 knots. As he said, "If you take the average speed from 12 to 6 - that is giving her a run of six hours - she will not jump up in two hours [from 6 to 8], from [what she did from] 12 to 6 o'clock, from that average speed. You have six hours in there to take a mean on."
What Lowe also said about revolutions and log readings is:
"We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log."
That makes perfect sense since the log measures speed through the water, not speed made good, and engine revolutions determine the speed through the water.
It is very clear to me that the delayed turn of the corner was a fabrication that was made up by the time of the British inquiry to explain how the ship was able to reach as far west as 50° 14'W by 11:46pm if she turned at 5:50pm. At the American inquiry, the explanation was that there was an added 29 minutes in the time from noon to the time of collision which led to a 3h 27m difference between GMT and ship's clocks by time the ship struck. This apparently was worked into the equation while on board Carpathia. As I pointed out in previous posts, this 29 minute difference, plus the extra 6 minutes of time used by taking 11:46 instead of 11:40pm as the collision time, accounts for the vessel's DR being at 50° 14'W instead of being at 49° 57'W, which is just north of the wreck site.
However, Lowe was quite clear how he got his 20.95 knots.
"I used the speed for the position at 8 o'clock, and got it by dividing the distance from noon to the corner by the time that had elapsed from noon until the time we were at the corner."
It is also obvious that Lowe used a time interval of 6 hours when he got his 20.95 knots. As he said, "If you take the average speed from 12 to 6 - that is giving her a run of six hours - she will not jump up in two hours [from 6 to 8], from [what she did from] 12 to 6 o'clock, from that average speed. You have six hours in there to take a mean on."
What Lowe also said about revolutions and log readings is:
"We ring him [the engineer] up, and we see how she is doing with the revolutions, whether she is going faster or going slower; and you will find a corresponding difference in the log."
That makes perfect sense since the log measures speed through the water, not speed made good, and engine revolutions determine the speed through the water.
It is very clear to me that the delayed turn of the corner was a fabrication that was made up by the time of the British inquiry to explain how the ship was able to reach as far west as 50° 14'W by 11:46pm if she turned at 5:50pm. At the American inquiry, the explanation was that there was an added 29 minutes in the time from noon to the time of collision which led to a 3h 27m difference between GMT and ship's clocks by time the ship struck. This apparently was worked into the equation while on board Carpathia. As I pointed out in previous posts, this 29 minute difference, plus the extra 6 minutes of time used by taking 11:46 instead of 11:40pm as the collision time, accounts for the vessel's DR being at 50° 14'W instead of being at 49° 57'W, which is just north of the wreck site.
Christophe Puttemans
Member
Whoa, whoa, whoa... are you saying Titanic did NOT delay her turn at the corner? So much for me using National Geographic's 2005 documentary as a source.
I know Titanic used the southern route to New York which contained a corner followed by a completely straight line to America. I previously thought Captain Smith made that turn about 10 miles south of The Corner to get a bit further south when they would reach the ice field.
Jim Currie
Member
Hello Sam.
The engine revolutions were taken at the end of each Watch. Lowe was not present when Titanic turned The Corner. However the patent Log Readings were noted every 2 hours including 6 pm when Lowe came on Watch. So yes, Lowe got his speed of 20.95 knots by dividing the Patent Log reading for 6 pm by 6. This means that at 6 pm, the patent log was reading 126 nautical miles. If the speed by log was 20.95 knots at 6 pm, then at 5-50 pm., 10 minutes earlier, we can be safe in saying the reading was 122.2 nautical miles. However, it was reading 260 miles at the time of impact. If we apply that to your estimated position of impact and the agreed estimated position at Noon, then we find that the Patent Log was extremely accurate.
By the way; the difference between two Patent Log readings and total propeller revolutions between two fixed times simply indicate the apparent distance travelled in the lapsed time between these two time, not ship's speed. These were simply aids used by Navigators to determining a Dead Reckoning position. They stopped using RPM some time after the Titanic disaster. However, they still recorded RPM at the end of every Watch in my day but in all the years I was at sea, I never once saw engine RPM ever used in anger. The engineers had their own reasons for recording rpm.
I agree with you about the fabrication of the delayed turn to fit Boxhall's erroneous CQD. By the time of the UK Inquiry, the best kept secret must have been Boxhall's navigation error.
If you recall, Captain's Lord and Moore questioned it.
Additionally: Carpathia left the scene at 9 am on the morning of April, 15. It was a bright, sunny day and someone on that ship would work a longitude by chronometer before Noon and get a departure fix at Noon after they cleared the south end of the pack ice on their way back to New York. At Noon, April, 15, Captain Rostron must have known for certain that both his and Boxhall's navigation was garbage. Incidentally, so did Captain Lord of the Californian. Perhaps they all agreed or were told to keep quiet for the sake of poor old Boxhall. After all, he was the only surviving officer who was on duty on the bridge at that time.
Christophe: anyone who punts the 10 miles past The Corner nonsense is simply illustrating a profound lack of understanding or, as Sam indicates, has or had an alternative reason for doing so.
The engine revolutions were taken at the end of each Watch. Lowe was not present when Titanic turned The Corner. However the patent Log Readings were noted every 2 hours including 6 pm when Lowe came on Watch. So yes, Lowe got his speed of 20.95 knots by dividing the Patent Log reading for 6 pm by 6. This means that at 6 pm, the patent log was reading 126 nautical miles. If the speed by log was 20.95 knots at 6 pm, then at 5-50 pm., 10 minutes earlier, we can be safe in saying the reading was 122.2 nautical miles. However, it was reading 260 miles at the time of impact. If we apply that to your estimated position of impact and the agreed estimated position at Noon, then we find that the Patent Log was extremely accurate.
By the way; the difference between two Patent Log readings and total propeller revolutions between two fixed times simply indicate the apparent distance travelled in the lapsed time between these two time, not ship's speed. These were simply aids used by Navigators to determining a Dead Reckoning position. They stopped using RPM some time after the Titanic disaster. However, they still recorded RPM at the end of every Watch in my day but in all the years I was at sea, I never once saw engine RPM ever used in anger. The engineers had their own reasons for recording rpm.
I agree with you about the fabrication of the delayed turn to fit Boxhall's erroneous CQD. By the time of the UK Inquiry, the best kept secret must have been Boxhall's navigation error.
If you recall, Captain's Lord and Moore questioned it.
Additionally: Carpathia left the scene at 9 am on the morning of April, 15. It was a bright, sunny day and someone on that ship would work a longitude by chronometer before Noon and get a departure fix at Noon after they cleared the south end of the pack ice on their way back to New York. At Noon, April, 15, Captain Rostron must have known for certain that both his and Boxhall's navigation was garbage. Incidentally, so did Captain Lord of the Californian. Perhaps they all agreed or were told to keep quiet for the sake of poor old Boxhall. After all, he was the only surviving officer who was on duty on the bridge at that time.
Christophe: anyone who punts the 10 miles past The Corner nonsense is simply illustrating a profound lack of understanding or, as Sam indicates, has or had an alternative reason for doing so.
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