Fireman injured by the steam from the boiler

Thompson certainly broke his left arm, but it is a bit confusing when that happened. There are varying accounts suggesting that Thompson was injured when Collapsible A was pushed from the roof of the Captain's Quarters onto the boat deck; others claim that he was flung against something by the 'wave' generated by the sudden forward and downward lurch of the Titanic during the final plunge. In On A Sea Of Glass, the authors believe that Thompson broke his arm when Collapsible A was flung against a set of davits when the first funnel fell.

Whichever event caused Thompson's fracture, it does not rule out that he could have received minor burns or scalding of his hands earlier while in the boiler rooms. I am not saying that it happened but just that we cannot rule it out.
 
I am not saying that it happened but just that we cannot rule it out.
The problem I have with how certain events are portrayed is when they are written as if they are factual instead of just saying there is an account which claims, or it was reported that, such and such took place. Perhaps it is a style thing, but there are several places where the authors' interpretation of what was said is quite different from what you find when you go to the direct source itself.
Despite that, OASOG is one of the better books when it comes to citing their sources.
 
OASOG is one of the better books when it comes to citing their sources.
OASOG is the best book that I have come across not only as far as quoting their sources but to go to some length explaining them.

The problem I have with how certain events are portrayed is when they are written as if they are factual instead of just saying there is an account which claims, or it was reported that, such and such took place. Perhaps it is a style thing, but there are several places where the authors' interpretation of what was said is quite different from what you find when you go to the direct source itself.
But Sam, that is the case for almost all Titanic works that I have come across and it is not just a style thing. Interpretations based upon survivors' claims have been presented in every Titanic book or article that I have read, the difference being that some disguise it better than others. I have seen almost everyone use information obtained from newspaper interviews of survivors and (sometimes cleverly) incorporate them into their work, only occasionally acknowledging the source.

Furthermore, we can only apply hard lines between what is possible and what isn't only as far as certain events during the sinking are concerned, usually by applying (where possible) physical principles, logic or both. But as far as personal experiences of the Titanic survivors are concerned, how can anyone be sure of the precise lines between fact, misinterpretation and frank fabrication? Of course, there are plenty of blatantly stupid lies like the survival accounts Thomas Whitely and others which involved 'swimming for hours' etc but others are less easy to prove or disprove. Without going into specifics, there are plenty of Titanic related stories where there are different accounts of the same events as told by different survivors, each being convinced that they were right. Trimmer John Doe might swear that at 01:35am there was hardly any port list worth mentioning during lowering of Lifeboat X while Steward Joe Bloggs might be equally convincing in his belief that there was enough list to create a sizeable gap between the side of the ship and the lifeboat. If both John Doe and Joe Bloggs were then crew of Lifeboat X, how can anyone be certain which account between the two is closer to the truth? In such cases we (and I am including myself here) often end-up applying confirmation bias perhaps without even realizing it.

No names mentioned but I have long noted that a certain Titanic work contributor has cleverly chosen only those claims and reports that support his beliefs and discarded others but all the while presenting the entire issue as though it was his own original effort that no one else considered. His unqualified disdain of others' works and views have been obvious in most of his posts and poorly disguised, perhaps intentionally. And just to make things clearer, I am not talking about the former Marine Accident Investigator.

I agree with your classification of statements made during the Official Inquiries as "Primary Accounts" and those told to newspapers and similar as "Secondary"; I also accept that newspapers of those days had a high tendency to embellish, exaggerate and falsify statements made. But that does not change the possibility that the first person account of the survivor himself/herself could have been anything between fact, misinterpretation or fabrication, including during the Inquiries. For example, we have agreed that 4/O Boxhall was not exactly the epitome of honesty during his testimonies on either side of the 'Pond'; if the Fourth Officer could do that, how can other accounts be considered more or even less reliable? Also, several key survivors were not called in to testify, especially the passengers and so what we know of their experiences would have to be through media sources. To quote another example, neither Margaret Swift nor Martha Stone testified and so we know what they said - or supposed to have said - only though newspaper and other third party accounts. Under such circumstances, one cannot be certain of either accuracy or reliability of their statements and so one has little choice but to make one's own interpretation based on what evidence is available and a bit of logic. But with that sort of interpretation, confirmation bias invariably comes in.
 
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Interpretations based upon survivors' claims have been presented in every Titanic book or article that I have read, the difference being that some disguise it better than others.
Arun, it's when an interpretation is presented as a fact that bothers me. I have no problem with something along the lines of: "It appears that Captain Smith may have decided to fire up more boilers ..."; as opposed to: "Captain Smith ordered more boilers fired up ..." The two are very different.
 
Arun, it's when an interpretation is presented as a fact that bothers me. I have no problem with something along the lines of: "It appears that Captain Smith may have decided to fire up more boilers ..."; as opposed to: "Captain Smith ordered more boilers fired up ..." The two are very different.
OK Sam, I now understand what you are saying and accept it as a general principle; it might even be a 'style thing'.

But let us apply that principle to practical terms as far as the innumerable Titanic works - articles, monographs, books, forum posts etc - are concerned and see where it gets us. Apart from relatively few definitive facts - usually major issues like the Titanic did break-up before sinking etc - most of what we know about the disaster is based on survivor accounts that include testimonies during official inquiries (mostly crew), newspaper and other third party accounts, in some cases, statements from friends and relatives and limited evidence that can be obtained from a wreck discovered over 73 years later some 12500 feet deep on the ocean floor. With that kind of input, any reconstruction of either individual events during the sinking or the entire 161-minute drama has to involve several interpretations by the author(s) in order to make their work readable. Under such circumstances, if a contributor chooses to use phrases like "seems like", "appears to" "probably" etc, the final presentation could easily become a mishmash of unconvincing points that are barely understandable by the ordinary enthusiast. Therefore, most of them have chosen the path of collating several related points, interpreting the information so obtained into a readable narrative and presented it as their work. Of course, it is up to the readers then to decide what they want to accept, question, criticize, reject or argue about endlessly in forums such as this one. As far as I can see, there is no other way with the Titanic per se.

A few people like yourself are in a somewhat privileged position as far as the above is concerned because of the primary nature of your expertise. You are a Systems Engineer and Analyst and have the necessary qualifications and knowledge to dissect the physical principles and technical aspects of the disaster like the flooding of Boiler Room 4, the mechanics involved in the final plunge etc and present the results as undeniable facts. But most of the rest of us have to rely upon survivor statements and other less technical points before trying to merge those with definitive facts presented by experts like you and others. In doing so, it might appear (pun not intended) like we are taking too much liberty with unverifiable information but as I said before, there is no other coherent way.

Speaking of taking liberties, the contributor that I mentioned in Post #18 of this thread (we both know who I am talking about and so we'll leave it there if that's OK) has a greater tendency than anyone else to force what he believes down others' throats, not only stating circumstantial evidence (at best) that support his line of thinking as absolute facts but disdainfully dismissing anyone else who has the temerity to question his conclusions.
 
about the injuries in boiler rooms,well there could happen few but not somany,worst one would be burst of steam at someone,this could give third-level burns and eventual death if exposed to steam too long,so broken pipe could be in some cases fatal. .

i assume that during breakup there were men in boiler room 2 and 3 at time of breakup so broken steam pipes could boil potential victims alive. about injuries to crew in case of boiler explosion / implosion,there could be two types, the burns caused by escaping hot steam/water and shrapnels of exploded boiler sush rivets,if pressure is too high and safety valwe wont work boiler can explode,implosion will happen if boiler has normal pressure but gets hit and flooded by cold water,the metal will warp inwards. this we can see on boilers from boiler room 2 on wrecks,they are warped inwards. not ripped apart or torn off from foundation,..potential injuries there could be only from broken steam pipes.

as for exploding boilers on other ships, it depends on few factors,if boiler safety system is working,if boiler is not damaged,if crew operating boiler properly the risk of disaster is very little. in case of cold water hitting that boiler - it will not go off like bomb,no way. it will just bend inwarts,rivets may go off but boiler wont be torn into pieces. other type of injuries that could happen were hot coals raked out of boiler hitting someones foot/legs,if removing hot coals from boiler is done inproperly someone can get hit by hot coal. that would guarantee 3-4 degree burns. what else? quality of coal also can take part in eventual events. it is possible that bad quality coal can cause problem in funnels,the residues from coal could make flammable layer on the inside of funnel and eventually if hot boiler gets hit by cold water,it could throw burning coal pieces throught and ignite the residues so we could have sparks and intense smoke from falling funnel.
 
about the injuries in boiler rooms,well there could happen few but not somany,worst one would be burst of steam at someone,this could give third-level burns and eventual death if exposed to steam too long,so broken pipe could be in some cases fatal. .

i assume that during breakup there were men in boiler room 2 and 3 at time of breakup so broken steam pipes could boil potential victims alive. about injuries to crew in case of boiler explosion / implosion,there could be two types, the burns caused by escaping hot steam/water and shrapnels of exploded boiler sush rivets,if pressure is too high and safety valwe wont work boiler can explode,implosion will happen if boiler has normal pressure but gets hit and flooded by cold water,the metal will warp inwards. this we can see on boilers from boiler room 2 on wrecks,they are warped inwards. not ripped apart or torn off from foundation,..potential injuries there could be only from broken steam pipes.

as for exploding boilers on other ships, it depends on few factors,if boiler safety system is working,if boiler is not damaged,if crew operating boiler properly the risk of disaster is very little. in case of cold water hitting that boiler - it will not go off like bomb,no way. it will just bend inwarts,rivets may go off but boiler wont be torn into pieces. other type of injuries that could happen were hot coals raked out of boiler hitting someones foot/legs,if removing hot coals from boiler is done inproperly someone can get hit by hot coal. that would guarantee 3-4 degree burns. what else? quality of coal also can take part in eventual events. it is possible that bad quality coal can cause problem in funnels,the residues from coal could make flammable layer on the inside of funnel and eventually if hot boiler gets hit by cold water,it could throw burning coal pieces throught and ignite the residues so we could have sparks and intense smoke from falling funnel.

No, there were not men in the boiler rooms 2 and 3 at the time of the breakup, unless they had chosen to die there, which is unlikely, as the engineers had all come up on deck themselves. Also someone who was in boiler rooms 2 or 3 at the time of the breakup would dead in too many ways to count, it's honestly a pointless exercise to imagine.

And yes, there are many possible failures of a boiler .... we have no evidence for any of them happening that night.
 
No, there were not men in the boiler rooms 2 and 3 at the time of the breakup, unless they had chosen to die there, which is unlikely, as the engineers had all come up on deck themselves. Also someone who was in boiler rooms 2 or 3 at the time of the breakup would dead in too many ways to count, it's honestly a pointless exercise to imagine.
Completely agree.
 
No, there were not men in the boiler rooms 2 and 3 at the time of the breakup
The dimming glow of her lights near the end, as well as wireless operator Bride's observation that they were no longer generating a spark from the transmitter shows that the boiler rooms (BR 2 and possibly BR 3) that had steam connection lines to the dynamos had been abandoned. The fires there were no longer being fed.
 
the radio stopped working around 2:07,thats time titanic sent last (message then radio orators left their cabins. dont forget that salt water was causing shorting so its possible that radio went offline because the circuit breaker responsible for it has tripped and there was no time for troubleshoot as water was coming into radio operators cabin... as for boilers,well they had decent heat inertia so even if there was nobody,remaining coal inside would burn out,until then they still were working. the lights going dimmer was caused by dynamo spinning down because lack of steam. the stokers must have stopped feeding boilers..i assume light s started to go dimmer around 2:15 so stokers had to leave the post around 2:10 not earlier.
 
the radio stopped working around 2:07,thats time titanic sent last (message then radio orators left their cabins. dont forget that salt water was causing shorting so its possible that radio went offline because the circuit breaker responsible for it has tripped and there was no time for troubleshoot as water was coming into radio operators cabin... as for boilers,well they had decent heat inertia so even if there was nobody,remaining coal inside would burn out,until then they still were working. the lights going dimmer was caused by dynamo spinning down because lack of steam. the stokers must have stopped feeding boilers..i assume light s started to go dimmer around 2:15 so stokers had to leave the post around 2:10 not earlier.

There is thermal inertia in any steam system, the stokers very much could have left their posts sooner than that.
 
I’d go further and say that stoking probably ceased in BR 2 circa 0140 when the last tranche of stokers went up deck, and at that point the only men below were a few engineers keeping pumps and dynamos running. Some of the stokers coming up in this period warned hesitating passengers flatly, as I recall, “if you value your life, get in the boats”.

Chief Engineer Bell probably could do a simple calculation to show when the ship would
make her final plunge based on the rate of water coming in, and release the stokers when he knew the thermal mass in the boilers was sufficient to keep the lights on until the end. With the information already provided by Andrews that would take a minute or two of his time. That’s how I’d do it. The beginning of the failure of the lights relative to the sinking suggests the timing was done with fairly good precision, I don’t think it was luck, and why would it be when these men were all educated in the maths required and Titanic’s sinking was basically mathematical.

Alternatively it was based on some “gate” or “trigger” as we’d say today, like water over x height being reported in a certain space, that Bell would just know meant the ship’s remaining life was about the same as the thermal mass in the boilers could keep the dynamos running for.

Why die at your posts when you can, in fact, calculate the moment at which further effort is pointless?
 
I’d go further and say that stoking probably ceased in BR 2 circa 0140 when the last tranche of stokers went up deck, and at that point the only men below were a few engineers keeping pumps and dynamos running. Why die at your posts when you can, in fact, calculate the moment at which further effort is pointless?
I agree completely. While it is difficult to be precise with the times, I think your surmise that by 01:40am all the firemen, stokers, trimmers and greasers were up on the boat deck is very close to fact. Even the engineers soon followed; the myth that all Engineers remained at their posts till the very end prevailed for a long time but is not true. It would have been pointless to stay below and drown when there was nothing more they could do. I cannot quote from memory but there were at least a couple of survivors who saw Chief Engineer Bell on the boat deck in the final moments and if he was there, the others would have been too. Of course, none of the engineers survived.
 
time titanic sent last (message then radio orators left their cabins. dont forget that salt water was causing shorting so its possible that radio went offline because the circuit breaker responsible for it has tripped and there was no time for troubleshoot as water was coming into radio operators cabin...
Breakers didn't trip. The voltage had dropped to the point where a spark was no longer being generated, and Bride and Phillips decided it was time to abandon the cabin. One of them even shut the switch before leaving because that was seen at the wreck.
 
Direct steam injuries were impossible because there are no circumstances in the boiler room and engineering spaces in which crew could ever come in to direct contact with pure, high pressure steam. (That is, until the breakup destroyed integrity of the steam lines- and if anyone was present in the engineering spaces to witness that the chance of survival was zero anyway).

Remember, there's a difference between steam and water vapour. Steam is an invisible gaseous state of water- it is saturated, essentially dry (around 3-5% moisture) and under high pressure (215psi). Whereas vapour is when water evaporates below it's boiling temperature, at ambient air pressure. The clouds filling the flooding boiler rooms that are so often described as 'steam' were simply water vapour created by raking fires onto the stokehold plates and in doing so bringing it into contact with the flood water- causing rapid evaporation. The raked ash and clinker is certainly hot, but the sheer volume of water into which it was being deposited would not be enough to reach boiling point! Also worthy of note that this 'steamy' atmosphere was by no means unfamiliar for the black gang: When periodically cleaning the fires the firemen would draw out the clinker and burn down half the fire (winging it over to alterantive sides of the grate). The trimmers would douse down the resulting coals and clinker with water before shovelling the resulting grey sludge off to the ash ejectors. Normally, this would be done in rotation on one of the three furnaces of each boiler per watch. The difference during the Titanic disaster is that all the furnaces in the boiler rooms intended to be brought offline had to be drawn at once, which would obviously create a tremendous amount of steam and flying sparks. Even so, you'll be genuinely surprised how quick and easy it is, once dampers are closed and the fire banked, to completely destroy a fire by raking it out- I've seen it done (albeit contrary to just about every modern health and safety regulation going!).

Burn injuries from other sources are certainly possible in a working boiler room- ash and clinker are by definition hot! The risk of injury is, like anything in the industrial age, dependent on the urgency with which the men were working and how careful they were on a personal level. My understanding is that the situation in BR5 and 4 appears to have been relatively well managed after the initial shock of the collision and nobody was likely to be suddenly abandoning hard-earned caution and begin using a 8ft long rake to haul hot coals onto their own feet! I imagine raking the fires in the remaining BR5 and certainly in 4 would have been conducted quite methodically and carefully.

There are of course several pipes and valves associated with the working of boilers that will become very hot in the course of use and a high-pressure situation may have led to a crew member making a momentary lapse of judgement and grasping something they shouldn't. But speaking as someone who volunteers for a local steam pump engine charity, you do learn very quickly which pipes not to touch, and which valves not to turn unless you're holding a damp rag!

So in summary: burns and some localised scolding, possibly. But fatal scaldings as depicted in the movies, I really don't think so.

Will
 
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