Mike Poirier
Member
Didn't Loraine Kramer's lawyer say all the papers he had for the case were destroyed? So how do you have them Debrina?
Helen Loraine Allison/Kramer - Survivor TITANIC Mystery
- Thread starter thedebrina
- Start date
Jim Kalafus
Member
I enjoyed Ms McCully's well presented list of rebutals and logic flaws very much. One wonders how every survivor who would have seen Lorraine placed into a lifeboat; how every passenger who was with her in a lifeboat; how the captain, officers, crew, and passengers, of the Carpathia, were ALL coerced into complete silence, and how they all acted in seamless unison ~under what might be called extreme stress~ to keep the child well hidden, and silent, during the voyage to NY and immediately after. The story makes no sense. If you peruse Doenetwork, you'll see that unfortunately there are a few cases of children abducted from disaster sites (one of whom found her way home after nearly 60 years) but Lorraine Allison was in a completely sealed environment, in which odds were astronomical that such a thing could happen~ unless an entire shipload of passengers and crew, PLUS 700+ Titanic survivors, simultaneously decided to cooperate.
GET LORRAINE ALLISON, as a conspiracy theory, is risible. It doesnt even work well as discussion fodder. WHAT would be the point? Although an attractive and loved child, she had no political or social import. It is not as if anti-monarchists suddenly had a shot at carrying off the last in line to some throne, as would happen in 19th century novels. So what we are left with is up to 1500 people all deciding to participate in an abduction for no apparent reason other than that they were asked and felt like cooperating.
From the Romanov children, to Charlie Ross, to present day serial killer victims, there has been an ongoing, and disturbing, pattern of cruel hoaxes perpetuated against families of missing and presumed dead children. This case seems to be far more in keeping with THAT scenario than it does the case of the girl abducted from the Babb Switch School fire who found her way home a lifetime later.
GET LORRAINE ALLISON, as a conspiracy theory, is risible. It doesnt even work well as discussion fodder. WHAT would be the point? Although an attractive and loved child, she had no political or social import. It is not as if anti-monarchists suddenly had a shot at carrying off the last in line to some throne, as would happen in 19th century novels. So what we are left with is up to 1500 people all deciding to participate in an abduction for no apparent reason other than that they were asked and felt like cooperating.
From the Romanov children, to Charlie Ross, to present day serial killer victims, there has been an ongoing, and disturbing, pattern of cruel hoaxes perpetuated against families of missing and presumed dead children. This case seems to be far more in keeping with THAT scenario than it does the case of the girl abducted from the Babb Switch School fire who found her way home a lifetime later.
Jake Peterson
Member
So, wait...If Thomas Andrews was Hyde, why did he sign the note in 1940 as Hyde, rather then Andrews? At that point, wouldn't he have given his real name, if he was going to come clean about the whole deception?
hazel mccully
Member
Just want to say I am sure I have solved this.
Helen Loraine Kramer "married" Beecher Ferguson. they had two children in 1929 and 1930 in Michigan
In 1935, she was with Lawrence Kramer and they had two children in 1935 and 1937 in Michigan
In 1922 this same woman was with a Dr. Lester Robert Walsh in Michigan. Also in 1922 she had a son, Lester Leo John Walsh. When Lester Leo John Walsh applied for Social Security he gave his mother's name as Evangline Irene Lee Hyde which shows it IS the same Helen Loraine Kramer who claimed a "Mr. Hyde" rescued her off the Titanic.
Now in 1922 Helen Loraine Allison, had she lived, would have been 13 years old! not old enough to be married and with a child in Michigan when Ms. Woods claims her grandmother was being raised in England by this Mr. Hyde.
I hope this all makes sense. I will write it up in full later.
Helen Loraine Kramer "married" Beecher Ferguson. they had two children in 1929 and 1930 in Michigan
In 1935, she was with Lawrence Kramer and they had two children in 1935 and 1937 in Michigan
In 1922 this same woman was with a Dr. Lester Robert Walsh in Michigan. Also in 1922 she had a son, Lester Leo John Walsh. When Lester Leo John Walsh applied for Social Security he gave his mother's name as Evangline Irene Lee Hyde which shows it IS the same Helen Loraine Kramer who claimed a "Mr. Hyde" rescued her off the Titanic.
Now in 1922 Helen Loraine Allison, had she lived, would have been 13 years old! not old enough to be married and with a child in Michigan when Ms. Woods claims her grandmother was being raised in England by this Mr. Hyde.
I hope this all makes sense. I will write it up in full later.
Jake Peterson
Member
Unless she became pregnant at that age. Rare, but it does happen, of course.
Just putting that thought out there.
Will be looking forward to reading your conclusions! This is all very intriguing.
Just putting that thought out there.
Will be looking forward to reading your conclusions! This is all very intriguing.
Scott Mills
Member
I have the same reservations as you do, but why not let her produce her evidence before getting so vitriolic about it? If she doesnt, or if she does it is inadequate to prove her case, then we can tell her family story is just a myth and be done with it. And if she can convince the family to participate in Dna tests, then great as that evidence will trump all other--especially if it shows no relation.
And while I have said, over and over, that I agree and think it bordering on impossible for this to be true, I think you are hyperbolizing a bit. It is not as if all 700 survivors would have recognized the girl. Come now.
I think your being unfair here. We are talking about an event 100 years in the past. No one in the family who knew the girl in 1912 is alive. Nobody is being intentionally "victimized." This is really just a geneological claim, no different than any other. And Debrina is not making this all up. Its an historical fact that the claim was made by her grandmother in the 1940s. Do you blame her for giving her grandmother's story more merit than you do? I tell you what, I would give my grandmother more merit as well, until I could prove that she was wrong!
hazel mccully
Member
Jake, what you say is of course true, Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin. However, Mrs. Kramer herself said that she was in a boarding school in England when in fact she was in Michigan living with a doctor and raising a child. Would a dr really set up home with a 12 year old child and impregnate her? Not impossible but not likely.
I am not saying that Debrina Woods is making this up. She is entitled to know the truth of this.
What I do object to is that before DNA testing has been carried out, she is looking for Book/Movie/film deals and has prepared a question and answer lecture which she will charge money for before it has been confirmed that she is a descendant to Hudson and Bessie.
If you look at her website she types in such a sensationalist way similar in style to how trashy magazines advertise to try and incite you to buy.
Again, can I reiterate that I am NOT trying to bully Ms. Woods at all. I welcome DNA testing to clear this up once and for all.
Scott, while to you this may just be a geneological claim, I can assure you that to those affected it is more. I am sure the grandchildren of Hudson's brothers and sister who felt the pain caused by this claim would disagree with you.
I am sure my family would disagree with you. They grew up with the distress this caused. Although no one who knew Hudson, Bessie or Loraine is alive now, their children and grand children are alive and we have as much right as Debrina does to be emotional over this.
No one is saying that Debrina is making it all up however, her belief in it does not make it true. My husband and I are working on a webpage which will show our findings so far. It will be available publicly and for free hopefully sometime this next week.
We are not trying to villify Ms. Woods or her family. What we are trying to do is refute some of the claims she has made on behalf of her grandmother. Especially the part where she implies that Percy Allison and Lillian Allison kept Loraine away from the family and somehow helped Trevor to die just so they can benefit from Hudson's will which is just not true.
I can only hope that Debrina is able to get DNA testing completed as soon as possible to clear this up.
Jake Peterson
Member
Hi Hazel;
Yes, I did she her page. I do agree it was odd to be doing lectures when the tests haven't been done yet, but I think after all this is done, writing a book (minus the speaking and touring fees) about her experiences that she and her family have gone through would be ok. (It would be for you as well, no doubt )
I had said in a post awhile back, if Andrews survived, and lived with Lorraine under the assumed name of one of his colleagues, why would he not have mentioned that in the note to Mrs. Kramer in 1940? "Oh, by the way, we've been living under an assumed name, I'm really Thomas Andrews, the ship's builder"
Yes, I did she her page. I do agree it was odd to be doing lectures when the tests haven't been done yet, but I think after all this is done, writing a book (minus the speaking and touring fees) about her experiences that she and her family have gone through would be ok. (It would be for you as well, no doubt
)I had said in a post awhile back, if Andrews survived, and lived with Lorraine under the assumed name of one of his colleagues, why would he not have mentioned that in the note to Mrs. Kramer in 1940? "Oh, by the way, we've been living under an assumed name, I'm really Thomas Andrews, the ship's builder"
thedebrina
Member
Yes Mike and to All,
Much that was crucial was destroyed in the fire...but what none of us knew that the Atty Arthur Flynn had been sending frequent status reports to her ....and here they all were on his letter head with the envelopes and postage stamps from 1940 on, in tact....
WE WERE Astounded to discover them! As will the rest of the world be when published. I have the private detectives reports in England and many members of the Allison Family refer to them AS "SHOCKING and heart breaking" and ah. OH by the way...
Where do you think the whole story involeving Thomas Andrews came from back in the day??? FROM Hyde himself! "I am sorry I am dying and there is nothing more that they can do to me now..." and the refernces to the suspicious nature of Trevors death come from MANY letters from family members suspicions and eventually Mr. Flynns. I am just relaying others thoughts from their letters from the time NOT MY OWN ASSUMPTIONS.
Please keep checking my web site for updates as I have been advised to cease all public forums after today as I can impart nothing more without compromising until we publish.
NOTE: Again, I am not as are so many are, simply assuming WHY things could not have happened....but what I have are actual documents and letters detailing things as they (Ok Possibly) DID and were happening in real time and in the QUOTES from those letters from the principles of the time and also quotes from Hyde's/Andrews diary. Everyone please just relax until the DNA returns and we are published.
Finally, Why should I not have the right to write about what is at the very least a significant recently discovered historical cache but which also happens to be about a well loved and cherished member of my family and vitum of unusual circumstances, that so many seem fit to malign!
As for charging a fee for lecturing I WAS BEING APPROACH almost from the first moment I posted.... I am NOT fisihing for engagements THEY are coming to me!!! NOTE: That I have held back comitting to ALL inquires contingent upon the DNA analysis outcome. So due to OTHERS intrest, I have organised myself and I am fully capable to present and share this tale. PLUS...I have had to spend significant sums not planned for regarding the DNA and many other related costs. Just copying all the mountain of materials alone was a shock... and this is, an AMAZING story that I happen to be able to and will enjoy to tell from first hand experience. I have as I ever have in this and all other postings ...simply asked for an open mind and whatever sincere help might be rendered to us "Without Prejudice".
I wish you all peace, which is all that we are after.
Much that was crucial was destroyed in the fire...but what none of us knew that the Atty Arthur Flynn had been sending frequent status reports to her ....and here they all were on his letter head with the envelopes and postage stamps from 1940 on, in tact....
WE WERE Astounded to discover them! As will the rest of the world be when published. I have the private detectives reports in England and many members of the Allison Family refer to them AS "SHOCKING and heart breaking" and ah. OH by the way...
Where do you think the whole story involeving Thomas Andrews came from back in the day??? FROM Hyde himself! "I am sorry I am dying and there is nothing more that they can do to me now..." and the refernces to the suspicious nature of Trevors death come from MANY letters from family members suspicions and eventually Mr. Flynns. I am just relaying others thoughts from their letters from the time NOT MY OWN ASSUMPTIONS.
Please keep checking my web site for updates as I have been advised to cease all public forums after today as I can impart nothing more without compromising until we publish.
NOTE: Again, I am not as are so many are, simply assuming WHY things could not have happened....but what I have are actual documents and letters detailing things as they (Ok Possibly) DID and were happening in real time and in the QUOTES from those letters from the principles of the time and also quotes from Hyde's/Andrews diary. Everyone please just relax until the DNA returns and we are published.
Finally, Why should I not have the right to write about what is at the very least a significant recently discovered historical cache but which also happens to be about a well loved and cherished member of my family and vitum of unusual circumstances, that so many seem fit to malign!
As for charging a fee for lecturing I WAS BEING APPROACH almost from the first moment I posted.... I am NOT fisihing for engagements THEY are coming to me!!! NOTE: That I have held back comitting to ALL inquires contingent upon the DNA analysis outcome. So due to OTHERS intrest, I have organised myself and I am fully capable to present and share this tale. PLUS...I have had to spend significant sums not planned for regarding the DNA and many other related costs. Just copying all the mountain of materials alone was a shock... and this is, an AMAZING story that I happen to be able to and will enjoy to tell from first hand experience. I have as I ever have in this and all other postings ...simply asked for an open mind and whatever sincere help might be rendered to us "Without Prejudice".
I wish you all peace, which is all that we are after.
thedebrina
Member
RE: Don Lych/Ken Marshall Titanic Book. as soon as it came out years ago my mother and I called foul...and contacted the publisher who led us to them and Don Came to see me in San Francisco and said "I located your grandmother back in the 70's and asked her to detail information but she refused to speak of it all...and I am a historian I had to publish what I had" Note: his information on the nurse was as it turns out inaccurate as well. I am still in recent contact with Mr Lynch who is well awaire of my quest and reserving judgement until the testing is done.
Scott Mills
Member
Hazel,
Most of those people are long dead, and what you seem to be implying is that any claim made against a survivor or victim of Titanic is guilty of victimizing the family.
You might as well say that everyone who publishes books about people involved in, or having been there during the disaster should not do so.
Lightoller's granddaughter saying Hitchens turned the wheel hard over the wrong direction? Slander and victimization of Hitchens family, living or dead.
Claims that blame Californian or Mount Temple? Victimization. Questioning official testimony? Victimization.
And any one who makes money from these claims by publishing books, making documentaries, etc a terrible person.
And the fact remains. For Debrina this is a genealogical claim. She cannot be blamed for the amorphous pain caused to dead people by her grandmother 60 or 70 years ago.
Most of those people are long dead, and what you seem to be implying is that any claim made against a survivor or victim of Titanic is guilty of victimizing the family.
You might as well say that everyone who publishes books about people involved in, or having been there during the disaster should not do so.
Lightoller's granddaughter saying Hitchens turned the wheel hard over the wrong direction? Slander and victimization of Hitchens family, living or dead.
Claims that blame Californian or Mount Temple? Victimization. Questioning official testimony? Victimization.
And any one who makes money from these claims by publishing books, making documentaries, etc a terrible person.
And the fact remains. For Debrina this is a genealogical claim. She cannot be blamed for the amorphous pain caused to dead people by her grandmother 60 or 70 years ago.
Mike Poirier
Member
I posed this on another forum. Could it be, that this woman was the illegitimate daughter of Hudson Allison?
Tracy Oost
Member
Hi,
I haven't seen Debrina post anything since May. Has anyone heard if there are results? I think we are all curious as to the outcome of this case. BTW, does anyone know which DNA laboratory was doing the testing?
Cheers!
I haven't seen Debrina post anything since May. Has anyone heard if there are results? I think we are all curious as to the outcome of this case. BTW, does anyone know which DNA laboratory was doing the testing?
Cheers!
Jake Peterson
Member
I, too, am curious. Perhaps there's something about it on Google?
thedebrina
Member
Thank you all for your continued interest in this story....
NOTE: I am not independently wealthy and able to devote all the attention and financial resources required to attend to the continued researching of this story.
I must work very hard in this difficult economy to support my 83 year old mother who is in the beginning stages of Alzheimers, compounded by the fact that my work often takes me out of the country for extended periods to time and is very demanding.
This summer I returned from a grueling work schedule to find my house and home of seven years had sold and that I had 8 days to find a place to live and pack all and move.........it was a Herculean task which has left me physically, emotional and financially compromised.
Sadly, I do not have the time or resources to commit any further to this story at this time although fully expect to be able to once things have settled down for me after the New Year. I regret these delays and would like nothing better than to be able to commit full time to this matter but the costs involved have been substantial already and I simply have OTHER more pressing priorities.
I WILL BE PURSING THIS MATTER again fully as soon as I am able. Although, I have been strongly advised to NOT participate in public forums by my legal and professional representation teams and fully intend to comply with said advise.
NOTE: I feel I OWE ABSOLUTLY NO ONE not directly involved in this matter ANY explanations, I just wanted in good faith to explain the delay.
NOTE: I am not independently wealthy and able to devote all the attention and financial resources required to attend to the continued researching of this story.
I must work very hard in this difficult economy to support my 83 year old mother who is in the beginning stages of Alzheimers, compounded by the fact that my work often takes me out of the country for extended periods to time and is very demanding.
This summer I returned from a grueling work schedule to find my house and home of seven years had sold and that I had 8 days to find a place to live and pack all and move.........it was a Herculean task which has left me physically, emotional and financially compromised.
Sadly, I do not have the time or resources to commit any further to this story at this time although fully expect to be able to once things have settled down for me after the New Year. I regret these delays and would like nothing better than to be able to commit full time to this matter but the costs involved have been substantial already and I simply have OTHER more pressing priorities.
I WILL BE PURSING THIS MATTER again fully as soon as I am able. Although, I have been strongly advised to NOT participate in public forums by my legal and professional representation teams and fully intend to comply with said advise.
NOTE: I feel I OWE ABSOLUTLY NO ONE not directly involved in this matter ANY explanations, I just wanted in good faith to explain the delay.
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