How much of a difference would it have made?

[Samuel Halpern]

Californian was swinging around. The sketch in post #419 would have been around 12:15 Cal. time, after Stone arrived on deck. Here Californian is point ENE magnetic as shown. At that time her mast lights and green side light would be visible to Titanic. (Titanic time would be 12:27). However, around 11:30 Cal. time (11:42 Titanic), Californian was pointing a little north of NE magnetic, and her mast lights and green side light would be shut out to Titanic, and her stern light too dim to be noticed.

There is also some confusion when we talk of bearings, between magnetic bearings and true bearing. On the sketch above I show a magnetic compass and refer to magnetic bearings on that compass. The variation in that region was 22° west, about 2 points. True north being straight up. Thus when Cal was pointing ENE magnetic, she was pointing NE true. It is easy to get the two types of bearings mixed up.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

To change the discussion somewhat while being in the speculative zone here, what do you think would have happened when those rockets went up if Groves was OOW during the Middle watch instead of Stone? And why?

 

[Arun Vajpey]

To change the discussion somewhat while being in the speculative zone here, what do you think would have happened when those rockets went up if Groves was OOW during the Middle watch instead of Stone? And why?

This is a new and VERY positively interesting development from you Sam!. This is the first time I have encountered a non-technical speculative point from you, which is welcome as far as I am concerned . And since it is speculative, I'll be happy to answer that question, but in order to do so coherently we must first consider what your question entails.

In order to observe those rockets, Charles Groves would have to be on the Midnight to 4am 'Middle Watch', which meant that another officer would have to cover the 8pm to midnight part. For sake of this discussion, we will assume that it was Stone, ie a straight swap between the 2/O and 3/O. The answer to your question depends on what I perceive to be a difference in the two men's personalities; despite being relatively inexperienced and not exactly an expert observer, IMO Groves was less intimidated by Captain Lord compared with his senior colleague Stone.

So, in your hypothetical scenario, it would have been Stone who first observed the other ship - which we now know was the Titanic - approach obliquely from the east etc. Stone would have seen the same thing that Groves actually did and just like the 3/O would have informed the Captain because the OOW of the 8pm to midnight shift had been ordered to do so by Lord. Lord very likely would have reacted the same way he did with Groves in reality but even if Stone himself had felt that the other ship was a passenger steamer, IMO he would NOT have persisted with that opinion (like Groves had done in reality) when Captain Lord had questioned it. Accordingly, during the handover to Groves at midnight, Stone would have made a very similar report but not saying anything about the other ship being a passenger steamer, something that I believe Groves himself did in the real world (#8257). That would have been the starting point for Groves' hypothetical 'Middle Watch'.

IMO, as soon as Groves saw the other ship send up rockets in the middle of the night, he would have reacted positively. He might have just observed and wondered after the first rocket, but when the second one went up, Groves would immediately have had Evans woken-up and gotten him to check what was happening, while at the same time getting someone, perhaps Gibson, to alert Captain Lord. Even if the tired Lord had been lackadaisical in his response to Gibson's report, Groves would then himself have forthrightly informed Lord because by then the 3/O would have found out the truth about the other ship from Evans. I think it would be fair to say that from that point Captain Lord himself would have taken more positive action including rapidly getting the Californian on its way to the rescue. As we have discussed elsewhere, that would have been little more than a futile attempt but irrespective of what transpired later, it would have put Captain Lord and his crew in a much better position than they actually found themselves. (And still in the world of speculation, none of us likely would have heard of a certain former self-opinionated marine investigator who repeatedly urged us mere mortals to "look at the evidence again....only more correctly this time" )

As to the "why?" of my answer to your question, the first reason would be the aforementioned difference in personalities between Groves and Stone, with the former being less put off by the martinet personality of Captain Lord. As important IMO would be Groves' known interest in shipboard wireless telegraphy, which would have made him instinctively get Evans to check very likely the moment he saw the first rocket go up, certainly with the second.

 

[Bob Read]

Arun: That’s a pretty big assumption that Groves would have had Evans awakened on his own authority. It seems more likely that he would have sent someone to inform Lord of the rockets. It’s also likely that all Lord would have done is send back his same message questioning whether they might be “company signals”. I don’t see this as a culture where anybody would have stuck his neck out rather than just let Lord shoulder all the responsibility. If you’re looking for a hero on Californian in any alternate scenario, for me the glass keeps coming up as half empty.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

If you’re looking for a hero on Californian in any alternate scenario, for me the glass keeps coming up as half empty.

Bob, I am NOT looking for any hero on the Californian or anywhere else. I am simply responding to the hypothetical but nevertheless specific question that Sam Hapern put directly to me.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

I am simply responding to the hypothetical but nevertheless specific question that Sam Hapern put directly to me.

Actually, I meant the question for anyone willing to stick their neck out. Thank you for your responses. I guess in my old age these days I'm willing to venture into the world of speculation a bit.

I tend to agree with Arun on this. Groves appeared to be willing to express his opinions and beliefs to Lord, and in reality, he had no problem waking Evans after his watch had ended to find out what ships he had. So if he was the OOW during the Middle watch, and saw those first two rockets I think he would have gone to Evans and asked him if he could find out anything, and then to inform Lord that he took it upon himself to do so. He may have waited to see a third rocket or for a response from Evans before doing the latter. Anyway, I believe this would have shown initiative on his part to his captain, which IMO probably would have been looked at as a positive thing by Lord. It also would have made Lord look like the hero of the night, being the first ship on the scene, even if the final result would not have been much different than it really was.

But as the late David G. Brown often quoted, history doesn't reveal its alternatives.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

I guess in my old age these days I'm willing to venture into the world of speculation a bit.

What old age? Did you mean just the number that comes up if you calculated the time that's passed since you were born?

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Should had added above that Stone admittedly only reported what he saw and would not voice an opinion. When he reported seeing rockets to Lord, his words were: "I reported [to you about] seeing these lights in the sky in the direction of the other steamer which appeared to me to be white rockets." He was then asked if they were company signals, to which his answer was, "I don't know," Stone saw multiple rockets fired at intervals. When questioned about that at the inquiry, Stone said he didn't know what they were being sent up for, only that he reported it to Lord to let him decide. For what its worth, according to Lord, Stone mentioned to him that he saw just one rocket.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Did you mean just the number that comes up if you calculated the time that's passed since you were born?

What else? And the fact that I too much time on my hands.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Stone admittedly only reported what he saw and would not voice an opinion. Stone said he didn't know what they were being sent up for, only that he reported it to Lord to let him decide. For what its worth, according to Lord, Stone mentioned to him that he saw just one rocket.

IMO that indicated that Stone was unsure of himself when it came to interacting with Captain Lord. Yet, if Gibson's testimony is to be believed, it was the same Second Officer Stone who felt that the other ship's lights appeared 'queer out of the water' (#7515), made the infamous remark about a ship not firing rockets at sea for nothing (#7529 and others) and ordered Gibson to inform the Captain that the other ship had altogether fired 8 rockets (#7552).

But of course, Captain Lord had already testified both in the US and in Britain by the time Gibson and Stone were called in themselves in that order.

 

[Bob Read]

Bob, I am NOT looking for any hero on the Californian or anywhere else. I am simply responding to the hypothetical but nevertheless specific question that Sam Hapern put directly to me.

Where did Sam specify that this question was exclusively for you?

 

[Julian Atkins]

I haven’t had my usual email prompts on the debate this last week so have missed the last few pages and been trying to catch up this evening.

I would like to think that Sam’s “A Captain Accused” piece would now get drastically altered and changed.

I agree that Groves was (within limits) more willing to confront Captain Lord than Stone.

He also did wake up Evans, and he also didn’t hold back on telling Marine Superintendent Fry in Liverpool what he assessed this other ship was. He also didn’t hold back on his view on this at the British Inquiry.

And as we know now for certain he continued with the Leyland Line and expected to serve under Captain Lord for The Californian’s next voyage.

So, although lots of Groves’ testimony comes across as muddled with timings, he needs to be reappraised.

Even the loyal Stewart said in testimony he would have awoken Evans and expected to be written in the scrap log the seeing of rockets. Groves said he would also have expected the 2nd Officer to record in the scrap log seeing rockets, but Groves stated he didn’t look at the previous page of the scrap log the next day… (I find this unconvincing on the part of Groves as to looking at the previous page, and finding that Stone had written nothing!)

Let us perhaps skip over the discrepancies between Stone and Gibson’s 18th April statements for the moment. What we do have from Evans’ USA testimony is at many points the next morning people coming to tell him things that he testified about, and that included Gill and Gibson. ‘3 times the Captain was called’ said Gibson to Evans.

I think Arun is quite correct to question why Stone didn’t think it was anything else other than a tramp steamer. It is an assessment by Stone without proper analysis and without asking for all sorts of other information. He ought to have known that only white rockets (that he saw eight of) could not be ‘company signals’ in The Atlantic. But if he was unsure after seeing a few of them this ridiculous conversation with Captain Lord ought to have prompted him to do something else such as perhaps sending Gibson down to the chart room to look up the register of ‘company signals’ in the chart room library.

 

[Julian Atkins]

I don’t myself think there was a concerted attempt at collusion in respect of Stone and Gibson’s 18th April statements, and of the only brief extract in his own hand of Gibson’s statement, I don’t think any further conclusions should be made without considering these primary source documents in the Liverpool Maritime Museum.

We don’t have Stone and Gibson’s wreck commissioner’s depositions.

I would rather concentrate on what we do know from the British Inquiry what was in the wreck commissioner’s statements and what was not. And what we know from the British Inquiry and Durrant and other Marconigrams that chip away at the timings and other stuff.

Durrant testified that he told Evans that Titanic had sunk at 5.15am Californian time on the 15th in answer to Evans’ ‘CQ’. Evans mucks up the time of his ‘CQ’and the time he was woken up, and says the Frankfurt replied first, which is clearly incorrect. Stewart races off to the flying bridge with a Marconigram that Titanic has sunk (exactly what Durrant testified) and to paraphrase when Groves and Stone are woken up some 90 minutes later they corroborated this. Yet Captain Lord maintained that he never knew till later that Titanic had sunk though it ought to have been obvious.

If you carefully piece together the testimony of Durrant (and his PV) and carefully take apart the testimony of The Californian witnesses against what was quoted back to them of their wreck commissioner’s statements, something had already happened in manufacturing a story at least by the time they got back to Liverpool. And probably by when they first docked in Boston.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Where did Sam specify that this question was exclusively for you?

I never claimed that he did. I merely pointed out that Sam had directed the question to me, which he clearly did if you read the flow of the previous few posts. In my book, propriety would require that I responded to his question, which was what I did. Of course anyone wanting to join in would be welcome but you seemed to suggest that in answering Sam's question I was trying to find a 'hero' among the crew of the Californian, which I was not.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

If you carefully piece together the testimony of Durrant (and his PV) and carefully take apart the testimony of The Californian witnesses against what was quoted back to them of their wreck commissioner’s statements, something had already happened in manufacturing a story at least by the time they got back to Liverpool. And probably by when they first docked in Boston.

That is a very interesting comment Julian and I think that I agree but request you to explain what you mean by "something had already happened in manufacturing a story". If you are saying what I think you are saying, IMO it happened before they even docked at Boston. But I would like your opinion about the people involved in "manufacturing" that story and what you believe the gist of it was before the official Inquiries had begun.

Also, we have to bear in mind that other than Captain Lord, only Cyril Evans and "Donkeyman" Ernest Gill were among the major players from the Californian testifying during the US Inquiry. Groves, Stone, Gibson and Stewart were not called but might have expected to be summoned later in Britain - which of course they were as was the Mount Temple's 'Sparks' John Durrant. IF the 'story' that you alluded to was manufactured before the Californian docked at Boston, could it have been 'fine tuned' on the way back to Liverpool?