Julian Atkins
Member
Precisely. I have always believed that to start with at least, Groves and Lord assumed that the other steamer had stopped for the night for the same reason as their Californian was stopped - due to the surrounding ice. If Lord had retired with that belief, perhaps the more concerning reports from Stone and Gibson later did not make the same impression on him as they should have done. And since he gave gave no specific orders other than to continue to observe and signal via a Morse Lamp, Stone did not take it further either.Lord and everyone else on Californian assumed the steamer had stopped because of ice, same reason Californian had stopped. According to his testimony, and also Stone's testimony, he was told the ship was moving after a rocket was seen. Why did the ship move after being stopped for sometime? Why not stop if you became damaged and needed assistance? Why send up distress signals if you are able to move on?
True. Sam, you recently told me during a PM that Lord might have been very tired that night and not quite thinking clearly, something that I fully agree with. So, while he probably missed the significance of what Stone and Gibson reported to him during the night, he would have realized his error in the cold light of the morning after learning of the Titanic going down. I believe that from that point on it would have been a damage limitation exercise for Lord and his crew even though they would not have yet known how deeply they would be questioned. As it turned out, the grilling was quite intense and in trying to keep his head above the water, Captain Lord might have resorted to the sort of fabrication that you alluded to.None of this makes sense, and that is the point of them claiming all this fabricated nonsense. Of course, all the more reason that Lord should have gone topside to see for himself and have Evans woken up. It is hard trying to apply logic to any of this.
Agreed. By the time he testified at the British Inquiry, Captain Lord would have known that he did not have answers from many of the questions raised and had no option but to resort to "it might have been" kind of responses that Julian is alluding to. The query to Stone if the rockets were company signals but at the same time admitting that he (Lord) only knew of distress signals at sea is an example. Also, if Lord felt that the other ship could have been in danger if it moved, why did he not order Evans to check even after Stone/Gibson reported to him that the ship had moved, that too after having stopped for a while during which time it fired several rockets?I’m not sure I attach too much importance to Captain Lord saying that this other ship might have been in danger if it had moved. This was part of a real grilling of Captain Lord at the British Inquiry that lead to the “it might have been” reply.
Sam, I am not convinced about this "afraid" bit, to be honest. Whatever else he might have been, Captain Lord does not come across as someone who would be afraid to stick his neck out - and if need be, his ship - in a risky situation, including the conditions that night. Like Julian has tabulated in his post, Lord's other actions after he ordered the Californian stopped for the night go against any undue uneasiness on his part.Of course when the Commissioner asked if he knew that it was Titanic in danger, Lord replied after Dunlop asked him this leading question, "What would you have done? No doubt you would have made an attempt?" to which Lord answered, "Most certainly I would have made every effort to go down to her."
But would he? He never before had to navigate a ship in the dark of night in the presence of ice. Would he really admit to something like he was afraid to so, and didn't want to find out?
In all fairness Julian, by "Lord must have been very tired" I believe Sam meant mentally jaded rather than physically tired. At 35 Lord was younger than most sea Captains of the day and as far as is known in good health and so, as you correctly pointed out above, there was no cause for him to be physically exhausted. But taking his relatively small ship through an area with icebergs towards an ice field just as night approached could easily have stressed him out, especially if he had not encountered such conditions before whilst in command of a vessel.I don’t think that Captain Lord was ‘tired’. He never said he was.
Yes, that seems to be a paradox in light of Lord's actions that you've mentioned below, after stopping the Californian. But if we read it as "Captain Lord did not want to move his ship during that night unless absolutely necessary", that would perhaps explain his orders to CE Mahan to keep the steam pressure up and the crew on standby. It would also explain why Lord did not go to his cabin to retire but was just resting in full uniform in the chart room seemingly ready to be alerted, IMO an acceptable decision since the Californian was stopped for the night.Sam’s post 453 above does contain bits of a certain line of thinking that Captain Lord both didn’t want to move his ship during the night, and didn’t want to know of something else that might have caused him to react and respond. Captain Lord had given explicit instructions to Chief Engineer Mahan to keep steam up in case they did have to move quickly during the night. He didn’t go to his cabin but was in the chart room fully dressed on the uncomfortable settee and with the lights on. So it was clearly in Captain Lord’s mind and orders that they might have to move and quickly at night. (But not for the reasons that ensued). Captain Lord had not ruled out any eventuality that The Californian would not move that night due to it being “most dangerous”.
I clearly remember on the ‘other’ thread a disagreement between myself and Jim about this bit of Captain Lord’s USA Inquiry testimony.‘We will keep handy in case some of those big fellows come crunching along and get into it.'
Yes, that makes 100% sense and I for one fully agree.He couldn't mean icebergs coming along because he was stopped and was drifting in the same current that any iceberg would be drifting in. Besides, there were no icebergs reported near to where they had stopped. Just pack ice. He could only have meant another ship, that he would have to get out of the way from.
Yes, very strange and I think by then Captain Lord was beginning to realize that he had painted himself into a corner. I agree with Sam that by "Big Fellows" he meant one of the bigger ships. Look at the full exchange including the question to which Lord gave that response:It seems a very odd choice of words by Captain Lord. (And perhaps uncharacteristic?)
Again like Julian says, odd choice of words and IMO those of a man beginning to realize that his position was more awkward than he had hoped it would turn out. This is my opinion only, but the reference to "big fellows" came instinctively and was because of two reasons: First, Captain Lord had known about the Titanic, at the time the world's largest ship, being in the vicinity and by the time he testified at the American Inquiry, the disaster was occupying a large part of the minds of all concerned, including Lord's own. Second, Lord's own ship, the Californian, was significantly smaller and so it was natural that he should have thought of the Titanic as a 'big fellow'.Why not a ‘small fellow’ that might have come too close to them? And what of “crunching”?
Difficult to guess that part IMO. It sounds like Lord meant that the he had ordered his engine room crew to be on standby in order to get out of the way if a bigger ship was actually coming towards the Californian, but IMO it is a bit far fetched. Though stopped, the Californian still had some deck lights on and one would have thought the other ship's lookouts would have spotted it well on time to get their 'big fellow' out of the way. But I cannot think of anything else about the meaning for that phrase.If drift, surely not coming towards them?
Possible, but note that Lord testified: I said, "We will keep handy in case some of those big fellows come crunching along and get into it."Perhaps the conversation wasn’t at all in those details, as we ought to question the lack of corroboration. Perhaps Captain Lord just said “I want The Californian ‘on standby’ during the night”?
Agree. I believe he was referring to a ship crunching through ice. Despite carrying navigation lights, a ship crunching through ice may not have the maneuverability needed to simply get out of the way. Remember concern to Stone about reporting immediately if the stopped steamer moved toward them.As for the refence to 'crunching', I am again using a bit of psychology here. The Californian had stopped because of the ice around and I have read that as it did so, small chunks of ice were knocking against its bow till the ship came to a complete halt. My opinion is that was the reason Captain Lord alluded to "crunching along", visualizing that a much bigger ship (like the Titanic) would have taken a lot longer to stop after orders were issued because of its greater speed and momentum, thus producing more 'crunching'.
I remember that too. Jim always had an agenda.I clearly remember on the ‘other’ thread a disagreement between myself and Jim about this bit of Captain Lord’s USA Inquiry testimony.
May I conjecture about that possibility Sam?I believe he was referring to a ship crunching through ice. Despite carrying navigation lights, a ship crunching through ice may not have the maneuverability needed to simply get out of the way.
Hi Arun,observers on the Californian could see the deck lights of the Titanic
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