How Titanic's Engines Sounded

[Steffen Reichel]

Dear Andrew,
what you tell is true, but consider that slide valves can be hold to the channel plate by springs.
So the fall off by gravity isn't the point, except the spring willl fail or break. Spring loaded slide valves are typically for many old I-type mounted steam engines.. In Railroad engines, slide valves were abandoned as higher steaam temperatures and higher pressures will be the common practice. Because, as you told with lubrication: higer Steam temperatures will have an deforming or deceasing effect to the lubricant film on the chanel plate or the piston valve stroke box. But in piston type valves the piston rings will fill the deceased oil areas with fresh oil much better and are noot pressed to the strokebox walls by pressure, so the high pressure does noot affect tthe oil film that hard, as in slide valves. As harder steam presses the slide to the channel plate, as less oil wil be betwen slide and plate, thus giving a somewhat abrasive effekt to slide andd plate surfeces, resulting in damage, desealing effects or mechanical destruction, which makes the slide unncomfortable for high temps and pressures.
And Andrew as wwe discussed earlier, Scott has given the link to the feed water thread, Titanic has a degrease/deoil unit in the fedwater system, and a direct contact feedwater heater will have the anti gas or anti oxygen part in the game, soe priming won't realy be a problem, only if tthose parts fail. You can find this on many raillroad steamerrs, like the famous Red Devil engines in South africa, or even there in the Condensor type engines. And those games do realy well ;o)
And there is another reason to use slide valves if pressure and temperature allow: What if a steam engine, like a railroad one, is iddling? the engine will act as air compressor, and no one can realy call this iddle, better call is a rattle or brake motion ;o) So in slide valves the slide will lift frrom the channel plate and the engine can iddle without the braking effect or compressing air to hard, a fact, why most railrroad or locomobile engins with slide valves have only air valves mounted to permit iddle, but piston valve engines need iddleing units, like special piston valves, special air or steam controlled idle valves and decompression systems. In south africa the 'La Porta' Piston valves arre mounted, in Germany the Trofimoff piston valve, Nicolai and Mueller piston valve was founded,, while other older engines have other iddle units, like the winterthur self acting iddle valve in austria and swizerland.
In slide valves this is not necessary.
But this fact we do noot find in stationary oor marrine engines, because there is no iddle, so this fact won't count!
But there is stilll the point aboout the channel diameters, the pressure, the temperature and the 'death space/room'.
The last thing you may find in alll steam engines, and are a considerable and important fact in designing, constructing and eeconomic of a stteam engine. I do not knew the right english term for this 'death space', but the right space design is very important, to buffer and for economoc reasons.....
In fact of IronLady, a triple expansion engine in Germany, as large as the one you showed I guess, the did not mount plate valves on LP Cylinders, because of the 'death room' design, and used two sets single piston valves.
You may find pictures and links to the engine in the feedwater thread, just look to the valve arangemant....

Feel much more invited to add some words here, I'd loved to read your post, Andrew!

 

[Andrew Fanner]

If Red Devil and La Porta had been current when the engines were being designed I suspect that WSL would have held the Blue Riband, or alternatively would have done the crossing on a _lot_ less coal. Enormously higher technology than used in 1912.

Are there detailed plans of the engine's internal workings anywhere? I for one would be interested to know just how up to date the design was held to be. Basic triple expansion with slide valves was not the cutting edge of technology in 1912, but it was reliable and relatively easy to build and scale larger or smaller as required.

Feedwater degassing. Was this available in 1912? I'm not sure but I think it was developed as practical technology in the 1920s. I'll have to look in the attic for some old manuals, if SWMBO didn't "lose" them when we moved house. It was certainly an issue for Metropolitan Line condensing steam locomotives and was instrumental in persuading the company to electrify.

True, reciprocating marine steam plant doesn't idle as a rule (IIRC some were made with gearboxes including a neutral setting, back to those missing manuals!) but running at very low power settings, which may be used in port, can cause poor valve seals and blowby issues with slide valves. Like a two stroke petrol engine large steam plant has an optimum speed range which is linked (for the steam plant) to valve timings. Given that the engines were reversible it would be logical to infer a valve motion permitting alteration of valve timing, using some variant of Stephensons motion as was common in marine plant of the period. (cf large reversing levers being thrown in Cameron's film.) However, it does seem that variations of power output were often a function of boilers in use rather than regulation and valve timing adjustment. Certainly some British naval practice of the time had engines as pretty much "on" or "off" and differing numbers of boilers coupled in order to vary the power output and this the vessel's speed.

I think your expression "death space" would be "clearance volume" in English. Digging back into memory this volume is an issue in compound engines as the total quantity of unuseable steam can become quite a large proportion of the steam taken into the HP cylinder at the beginning of the cycle.

I'm sure thet somewhere there must be a good treatise on the engines used on the Olympics, with design specs on swept volumes, valve timings and so forth. Anyone any ideas?

 

[Michael H. Standart]

While you won't find a lot there which is specific to the plant on an Olympic class liner, you may find "Steam at Sea" by Dr. Denis Griffiths to be useful as it's a nice general history of the subject.

 

[Steffen Reichel]

Dear Andrew,

many technics Porta and Warhole build in the Red devil were common in marine engines, like extra air to the funances, or in the combustion chamber. Condensators were build on titanic, als having a LP turbine acting in vakuum mode, and not as today in steam pressure mode. This we find also in only reciprocating engines were the LP cylinder acts in those low pressure levels, supported by the condensator vakuum. Something one never can build at railroad tracks, to large for this...
Many marine engines, I guess, were build and opimized for a all economic performance. Because sapce wasn't realy the limiting factor, as in many stationary engine plants.
so Titanic got a degreaser, still 1912. There was a direct contact feed water heater, and even if they did not knew about oxigen in boiler water, those things prevent gas and oxygen accumulation in boiler water, so had possitive effect, even if they did not know why...
Well and as mentioned before: Slide valves are not 'old' Technology. Slide valves are a choose depending on pressure, temperature and channel diamters need, and of 'death space'.
So we do not match here. The death space I mean is the space left if the piston reaches top or bottom end. So the sapce which is given be the steamchest channels, the cylinder steam channels and more. Here the steam, which is left for buffering the motion of the moving piston is compressed in, to buffer the moment of the piston mass, to avoid 'hammering' or 'Knocking'.
So this is not the clearance volume... or not the steam inside, more the space itself. and the death space is different for every cylinder and every pressure... Sorry if I do not knew the right term.
In high pressure environment this space should be small, just to prevent to much steam to be left after exhaust cutt off and leaving the buffer steam in the cylinder, so this is why they used piston valves or plate valves laterly, but in large piston diameters as for the marine very large LP cylinders the piston valves would be often to large so do and act well, even if one uses a set of single piston valves. Because you need a find adjustable valve stroke and a fine defined channel diameter to let in or out the amount of steam in time, so large channel diamters are required in LP environment. Here in engines with a lever and bar linkage, like Stephenson or Allen or Gooch, or even Walschaerts (commonly Stephenson linkage is used in Marine engines, less Walscherts and only few go with Joy Linkage) commonly piston or slide valves were moved, because plate valves need a single action point for acting, resulting an more, well, tricky linkage arangement and have higher maintainance. And in 1912 the sealing of such valves wasn't that good als in the later times. But plate valves were only 10 years later used and mounted. 'Iron Lady' uses a set of four plate valves, driven by levers and stroke bars, linked to a main control shaft at the cylinder work platform, propelled by a gear from the main crank shaft. But in marine engines one will not use this, because One cannout switch and control engine power output by valve timing, here power can only controlled by pressure, a very uneconomic mode. In Titanics case, the boilers will deliver the pressure, and the engineer controls the power output by valve timing. So one can consider: Low pressure, higher inlet and outlet times, higher steam consumption, but if less power was need, and the engineer 'toogles' the linkage to lower 'fillings', well, less steam was need, but less pressure and torgue was set free, this is good form port motions.
But at sea, we can consider Titanic was moving at maximum boiler pressure, and only the engineers and engine power output made the 'fireman' close or open boilers. Because if the engineers need higher valve timings to 'feed' the engine with more steam by time, we in Germany call this a large filling level, more steam is need and the boilers need more coal and the engine sucks steam, so maybe more boilers had to lit or run. Because all boilers on or off provide the same pressure, and it is the job of the firemen and stokers to hold the boilers 'on' and in balance, a hard job. Because that what one fireman is not doing, the other must do for him. And if one does to much, he will soon collapse in the heat and sweat, whitout any positive effect. so those guys must work as team, and not seen single. Because all boiler push their steam into a steam pipe, so the boilers act in compound. If one boiler produces less steam, well the pressure will stay, as a flow back from the main steam pipe, resultung in a less steam output to the engine, and it one boiler powers to much, he will suppress the other boilers, make one boiler operate in critical levels, while others get lower and lower in performance.
So the pressure to the engine is adjusted by the boiler 'gang', and the engineer drives the engine by filling, not by pressure. But: as less filling, as less steam is need, as little the boilers need to be on or running full power. so the boiler gang can choose to reduce the pressure, holding more boiler 'on-line' and communicatin the enginners to switch the linkage to higher fillings at lower pressures, which is also better for the engine, as the torque moment to the cranks will softer and continouslier than at high pressure low filling modes.
So an engineer wo 'drives' the engine only be pressure, even if boiler up or down or by main steam throttle valve, is not a good engineer. the engineer who goes with best filling and allways maximum pressure to the engine, weill do most economic, and only will allow to settle pressure down, if less power is need. So firemen and engineers still must be a team, makine the 'black gang' and the 'oil can gang' only together a powerfull engine room crew.
So if this seems to be a boiler driven thing, well, this won't be that way, as my own experience showed.
And if the british navy tends to go only on-off mode in engines, the boilers might not be very good used and this is very uneconomical, and shows not of a very high skilled engine crew. Unguessable for Titanic.
And Titanic got Stephenson linkage, thus I think the engineers will have used this to control the engine, and not the steam throttle or boilers.

but for slide valves: Running at low power will, with the right designed slide valves and a little sping load generate enough pressure to the channel plate to prevent blow by or better called 'slide lift off'... If this comes, well, then the engine should have a better engineer ;-)

But I agree: in to low power output modes the slides will lift, but good engineers then switch betwen minimal power and no power to prevent this.
I also agree: Marine engines do not iddle, and there is no fact why they should ;-)
and I agree: Steam engines have a maxium count of revolution or rounds, as a fact of timing in the valve open times.... And in normal operation mode the engineer opens more and more the throttle to apply more and more pressure to the engine, as he more and more reduces the linkage stroke, to give less filling. So less steam enters the engine, but with higher pressure, so more power will be generated by expansion of steam after cutt off, as with pressure of the steam itself. And in high speed operations, with maximum pressure applied, the engineers often has to 'reopen' the filling a little, just to give sort of extra time, to let a couple of more steam enter, to prevent the engine from 'jumping', but this will not make the engine faster, only holding it a this high stress power output mode....

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Thanks to all the expertise available at this site concerning this topic (especially Stephen, Scott, Andrew, and others). Speaking of engine valves, the Titanic & Olympic had just one piston valve on the HP cylinder, two piston valves on the IP cylinder, and two slide valves on each LP cylinder. Why were two valves needed on the IP and HP cylinders? And were the pair of valves on each cylinder operated in phase with each other, or was there any lag? Also, as Andrew has asked, is there any place where we can access the engine details for these ships, both reciprocating engines and LP turbine? (I have what is described in the midsummer 1911 "Shipbuilder" and am looking for something much more detailed than that.)

 

[Steffen Reichel]

WEll, es mentioned, the choice of the valve type depends usually onto cylinder diameter and pressure, least on temperature. So to avoid to large 'death spaces' and have the right channel diamter, to have the best timing and performance for the steam inlet and outlet.
So often die diamters and channels for a single piston valve will not fit, so the build two single piston valves, and / or slide valves.
Consider: The single piston valve has two valve bodies at a single piston bar mounted, so two pistons in a fixed distance open and close the steam channels at the movement of the piston bar, this is the comon piston valve, used for high temperatures and pressure.
In serveral circumstances the designer and constructeur of the engine split this, so mount a single piston valve, so one valve body at one piston bar, which wil need two 'single' piston valves for each cylinder (one atop, one at the bottom). This will do well, in enlarging the diamter and distance of both pistons, and giving better and shorter steam channels, resulting in better timing and a better designed death space.
So would be great to have an online 'plan' of the engine, just to dee the valve and the valve design, as to see were the placed the valves and then guess at why.
This is very speculative right now, because I can't see and I do often miss the right words or term or description (technicaly english) so misunderstandings could make this more worse than better.
But valve splitting isn't that uncommon in reciprocrating steam engines... In railroad steam engines, there very piston valves with moveable piston valve bodies for iddle, of piston valve bodies with spring loaded iddle valves in the piston body itself, or the used a set of four or eight plate valves moved by a stroke bar.... Thi is a thing of see, discuse and understand... all other is often misunderstanding each other, because my english is for such technical reasons not god at all...

 

[Andrew Fanner]

Engine room efficiency and plant efficiency were a recognised issue in British naval plant at one stage with poor HP/volume and HP/displacement figures compared to other nations.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Thanks Steffen for the detailed explanation.

 

[Steffen Reichel]

Just tried to be helpfull.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Well I don't have simulation of how Titanic's engines sounded, but I was able to generate a gif file animation of the propulsion system used on these ships. This, and an explanation, can be seen at: http://www.geocities.com/samuel_halpern/mypage.html Thanks to all the expertise at this site for their inputs concerning some of the details. Enjoy!

 

[Scott R. Andrews]

Sam,

Excellent work! I've seen a similar gif file animation for a three-cylinder triple, but this is exactly the sort of thing that everyone with an interest in the Titanic and who's new to the machinery and technical aspects needs to see!

Many Thanks,

Scott Andrews

 

[Cal Haines]

I've been meaning to add my two cents here, for what it's worth. I've been aboard SS Jeremiah O'Brien twice while she was under way on and spent most of my time in the engine room. If you are interested in steam engines, I highly recommend it! I've also visited the USS Texas (BB-35).

The O'Brien's engine itself is not all that noisy, but with all the other stuff in the combination engine and boiler room, you needed to speak rather loudly to be able to talk, but it is not uncomfortably loud. I pulled out an audio tape that I made the last time I was on the O'Brien and listened to some clips. You can hear an overall roar similar to being near a large river and periodic whooshing sounds, probably from the hot-well pump that was nearby. I think that the roar of the boilers along with that of the forced draft fan accounted for most of the noise. But with a dozen or so little auxiliary steam engines running things such as the draft fan, generators, feed water pumps, bilge pumps, etc., the noise all adds up. As I recall, stopping the engine or changing speeds did not alter the noise level in the engine room appreciably. The only sound that I could be sure came from the engine was a click-clack from the low pressure cylinder at top of stroke--a worn connecting rod or slipper bearing. I mentioned it to one of the engineers and he indicated that it wasn't bad enough to be a source of concern at the time.

I think there was also a sort of steady whoosh from the crankshaft as it turned. Even on the O'Brien's relatively small engine the mass of spinning metal is awesome! The cranks remind me of automobile engine blocks skewered on a length of sewer pipe and spun way too fast. At 60-70 RPM they move too quickly to really follow with the eye, the impression is of a moving blur, massive, unstoppable and dangerous to be near. I remember watching one of the greasers reaching out to pat the crank under the aft cylinder as it arced by, checking for heat and correct "feel" of the oil on it, and recoiling in horror at the thought of doing so myself.

I happened to be standing near the starting platform when the bridge ran down full astern while we were steaming full ahead. (I later learned that we were stopping so that a sick passenger could be taken off.) Reversal of the engine was quick, taking 15 to 20 seconds to accomplish. There was no vibration whatsoever when the engine began to run astern. Later, I was on the stern when the engine was again run astern. There you could feel the deck jump and actually hear the rudder clanking back and forth against the steering gear.

I asked several of O'Brien's engineers about an emergency full astern while at sea. None of them considered it to be a problem. One man had been and engineer on a Royal Dutch Shell reciprocating engine tanker that worked out of Alaska. He told me that on several occasions he had been ordered to put the engines full astern while at sea.

The O'Brien's engine was nice because the auxiliaries are situated athwart the engine, so you could actually stand back and get a look at that magnificent machine.

On the USS Texas, there was always something (bulkhead, pipe, pump, girder) within arms reach, so it was impossible to get a look at the entire engine. The engines of the Texas are comparable in power to those of Titanic but not as tall. The valve gear is all piston but many of the details, such as the reversing engine, are very similar. You have complete access to all of the platforms of the starboard engine. (The port engine is fenced off except for the starting platform.) Unfortunately, the Navy went to a lot of trouble to make sure that the engines will never run again, removing pieces, cutting the shaft, etc.. I spent over two hours scuttling about, happily tracing pipes and control linkages. Again, a must see for serious marine steam engine buffs.

Cal

 

[Keith R E Hall]

I have a sound clip taken from an engine onboard a steamship if you would like a copy e-mail me and i will upload it as an attachment.

 

[Paul Lee]

If you want to know what such engines sounded like, you could try the ground floor of the Science Museum in London. There is a smaller, but functional reciprocating engine there.

Also, somewhere near Walton-on-Thames is an engine used to pump water. I believe it was used in the film "A Night to Remember".

Cheers

Paul

 

[Brian Hawley]

I have some video clips I took in the engine room during a cruise on the liberty ship John Brown back in May. Her triple expansion engine was doing about 70 RPM at the time. The action of the engine was much less noisy than I would have thought. The heat in the room not the sound was the incredible part. If anyone is interested I can post a clip to my web page tonight and put a link in this thread. It was an amazing site and sound!


Brian