Is the Aft Grand Staircase still in the wreck

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike-

I thought the ship's freezer was made of metal. I can't imagine any wood being associated with its construction. Then again, I'm not quite sure how this was made, but I am curious. If anyone out there has any pictures of this, please share. I'd be very obliged.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I thought the ship's freezer was made of metal.<<

Mmmmmmmmm....my bust. I thought we were still discussing the aft staircase. The freezer was indeed made of metal but also lined with cork as insulation. We know that much was ejected from the wreck because it was seen floating among the debris. As to the metal, I doubt any of it would be recognizable unless seen by a well trained eye who knew exactly what to look for.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike-

quote:

I thought we were still discussing the aft staircase

Sorry for the confusion. But yes--we should stick with the topic at hand, and that is the aft grand staircase.

Were those wooden steps from the aft grand staircase found a while ago? They didn't appear to be from either, as they seemed straight, not curved, and had open slits between each step. I could be wrong though. I'd have to go back and view that particular photo again.

quote:

We know that much was ejected from the wreck because it was seen floating among the debris.

Really? I never knew that. Such a discovery must have been an eye-opener for the searchers of that time.

By the way, considering the location of the freezer far below in the depths of the ship, you'd think that this would be an indication to those of the time that the ship had, in fact, broken apart, otherwise such material would not/could not have found its way to the surface of the water.​

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Were those wooden steps from the aft grand staircase found a while ago?<<

I don't think so. I know there were fragments of the structure of the forward Grand Staircase which were identified inside the wreck. You'ed have to ask Ken Marschall as he's the one who identified the fragments in the wreck photos.

>>Such a discovery must have been an eye-opener for the searchers of that time.<<

Curiously, nobody seemed to think it was that big a deal at the time, but then popular understanding of forensic science wasn't quite what it is today.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike-

quote:

Curiously, nobody seemed to think it was that big a deal at the time, but then popular understanding of forensic science wasn't quite what it is today.

Maybe not, but it's still strange that some seasoned seamen or officers, or someone with experience in stress dynamics, didn't see the floating cork and think: Hey, now wait a minute . . . . It seems as if they were so concerned with pointing fingers and cast blame about that they weren't really paying attention.

I wonder if Wilding would have noticed (concluded a break up) had he been out there to see it, hmmm.​

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>I wonder if Wilding would have noticed (concluded a break up) had he been out there to see it, hmmm.<<

My bet is that he did know about the breakup, but it's not the sort of thing he was at liberty to discuss publicly. With the Germans looking on at a time when tensions were rising and the threat of war was taken seriously, you just don't admit in a public forum that your biggest, bestest ship with the best battleship steel broke up while on the way down.

I think the real story was known once they crunched the numbers and saw where it led, but that any such discussions took place in the smoke-filled backrooms.

The problem is that I can't prove any of it.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike-

quote:

With the Germans looking on at a time when tensions were rising and the threat of war was taken seriously, you just don't admit in a public forum that your biggest, bestest ship with the best battleship steel broke up while on the way down.

How much do want to bet that the Germans knew about it anyway, even the day after it happened? The media had the talent for getting the word out really damn fast, and usually embellished.

Also, the many witnesses who claimed the ship broke in two no doubt got their accounts in print. Wilding wouldn't have had to say anything, although I can understand why he wouldn't say anything publicly in the first place.

This likely did affect the oncoming war, at least causing the Germans to become suspicious of the British.

So much for keeping it in the smoke-filled backrooms.​

 

[David G. Brown]

Sometimes, governments are more worried about keeping secrets from their citizens than from their enemies. There was general knowledge at the time of the higher quality of German steel. It may have worried the Admiralty, but only because of the fear factor among sailors who might view their ships as even slightly inferior.

Also, there is the factor of fear among the ticket buying public. In aircraft, Lockheed's second Electra (4-engine turboprop) had a wing vibration problem that was fixed thanks to one of the most famous bits of forensic sleuthing on record. However, the public lost trust in the aircraft which then went on to fly millions of safe hours for the U.S. Navy and the improved wing spar was part of the hugely successful C-130 cargo plane. But, the passenger Electra was deader 'n Marley's doorpost nail.

If anything about Titanic was successfully covered up, it was the breakup. Until the ship was found in pieces everyone "bought" the official line of "sank intact."

-- David G. Brown

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>How much do want to bet that the Germans knew about it anyway, even the day after it happened? The media had the talent for getting the word out really damn fast, and usually embellished.<< [edited to use the proper quote]

They may have. I doubt that any German agents were privvy to any private discussions held over cigars and brandy, but they did read the newspapers, and the had plenty of smart naval architects who could crunch the numbers with the best of them. I doubt they were fooled, but it was probably convenient to pretend that they were. They were operating liners too, and the new ones were larger then the Olympic so if you cast doubt on the safety of large vessels, you cast doubt on the safety of your own.

At least that's the perception with Joe Sixpack on the streets, and in business, perceptions count a for a lot more then reality.

In any event, David makes a helluva good point about the spinmeistering. Sometimes, the idea isn't to pull the wool over the eyes of a nominal enemy, but in snookering your own citizens. This quaint and time honoured exercise is known as "Restoring Confidence." in whatever it's expediant to restore confidence in.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Mike-

First of all, the excerpt you used in your last post above came from Steve's post in the other thread and doesn't pertain to this one. A mistake, perhaps? Just pointing it out to you.

Also, regarding the "restoring confidence," no argument from me. I was just pointing out that regardless of what the men "behind-the-scene" said or didn't say, the media had a mind of its own and would dispatch information in its own way at it's own time, and the influence of the media is strong, whether or not it's information is correct or even impulsive. People tend to believe in it.

 

[David G. Brown]

Mark -- having been a member of "the media" for most of my adult life, I question whether it has a mind of its own. That's why it's always "minding" other people's business. And, facts really don't get in the way of news reporting.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>A mistake, perhaps? Just pointing it out to you.<<

Yes...and I corrected it.

>>and the influence of the media is strong, whether or not it's information is correct or even impulsive. People tend to believe in it.<<

And politicians as well as corperate wags tend to exploit that fact too.

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Dave-

quote:

And, facts really don't get in the way of news reporting.

No, but can't those facts be twisted for the sake of sensationalism? Look at the tabloids today. They aren't known for their truthfulness, just their sensationalistic fiction, which seemed to attract many readers.

Here's the scenario I am presenting:

A survivor who believes the ship broke apart (and there were many) gives his/her account to a reporter/journalist hungry for a great story. That, in turn, produces a story headline "Titanic Broke in Two as Hundreds Die." This attracts the attention of many people, including those, like the Germans, who live abroad. Suspicion swells and investigation ensues by said Germans . . .

Although this story might be factual (not yet confirmed), the reporter/journalist knows that such a dramatic story will sell newspapers/magazines. And all of this without those of the company having said a thing.

As for the German liners of the time, knowledge of the strengths and weakness of ship construction must have been a universal thing, so would anyone who knew about ship structure have been surprised to hear that the Titanic had broken apart? Likely, German naval architects and engineers were already privvy to such dreadful possibilities at sea.



Mike-

quote:

And politicians as well as corporate wags tend to exploit that fact too.

Amen! ​

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Anyway, I realize that this thread is about whether or not the aft grand staircase is still in the wreck.

The simple answer: No, it isn't; it was obliterated at the surface during the break up.

Maybe we can move on.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Although this story might be factual (not yet confirmed), the reporter/journalist knows that such a dramatic story will sell newspapers/magazines. And all of this without those of the company having said a thing. <<

A story can be completely factual and still be extremely misleading. It would be a factually correct statement to say, for example, that Adolph Hitler never killed a single human being. But as the actual history shows, the fact that he didn't personally pull the trigger or fill a room with lethal gas doesn't do justice to the reality where he gave the orders and over 12 million plus people paid the price.

By the same token, it would be a factually correct statement that the Titanic was operated in exactly the same manner as any other liner of the day and with the usual precautions which had worked for almost half a century.

Unfortuantely, this doesn't do justice to the fact that a lot of what they thought they knew about prudent navigation was just plain wrong!