Jack Phillips' final moments

[Robert T. Paige]

I think I understand what your question is ?
How many died on the ship , but still dry and out of the water while the ship was sinking , but different from those who later died when later frozen to death in the water afterwards ?
Good question !
Some could have died due to shock, heart failure, failure due to over-exertion , exposure to the cold , or any other reason before they actually came in contact with the freezing water ?
The total of those not in the lifeboats would have been 1500 any way.

One of the Harold Bride stories about Jack Phillips was that Jack Phillips did not die from the cold water but he was relatively dry and his death was due to the after effects of his CQD SOS operations, over exertions, fatigue and exposure to the cold.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Who are the documented witnesses other than Harold Bride who claim to have seen Jack Phillips alive in the final minutes before the Titanic broke-up and sank? I mean all of those who claim to have seen him after 02:15, approximately the time he and Bride left the Marconi room and went their separate ways.

Somehow I find it difficult to believe Lightoller's statements about Phillips clinging on to Collapsible B for while and even conversing with the Second Officer before slipping into the icy Atlantic waters to his death. How well did Lightoller know the two 'Sparks'? Did he mistake Bride for Phillips? According to Bride, Phillips went aft and away from Collapsible B when the two left the radio shack. If Phillips had somehow turned-up at the overturned lifeboat, surely Bride would have remembered it?

Harold Bride testified in America and mentioned the death of Phillips. Bride was asked:

Q - You say there were a number of people on the boat, on the bottom of the boat that was bottom-up when you got there?
A - Yes.
Q - Do you know any of them?
A - I heard afterwards that the senior operator was on board.
Q - Mr. Phillips?
A - Mr. Phillips.
Q - Was on the boat?
A - Yes; I heard so afterwards.
Q - He did not survive, however?
A - He did not survive.
Q - Do you know whether he died going from the Titanic to the Carpathia?
A - He died on the way; yes. He died on board the upturned boat.
Q - What became of his body?
A - As far as I know, it was taken on board the Carpathia and buried from the Carpathia.
Q - Buried at sea?
A - Buried from the Carpathia.

Bride also spoke of Phillips body in his exclusive interview to the New York Times in 1912.

"From aft came the tunes of the ship's band, playing the ragtime tune, 'Autumn. ' Phillips ran aft, and that was the last I ever saw of him alive............At last the Carpathia was alongside, and the people were being taken up a rope ladder. Our boat drew near, and one by one the men were taken off of it. One man was dead. I passed him, and went to a ladder, although my feet pained me terribly. The dead man was Phillips. He died on the raft from exposure and cold. I guess he had been all in from work before the wreck came. He stood his ground until the crisis passed and then collapsed. But I hardly thought of that then; I didn't think much about anything. I tried the rope ladder."

Lightoller wrote a book and claimed that he spoke to Phillips on the collapsible boat and that Phillips told him about the vital ice warning from the SS Mesaba which (according to Lightoller) was not sent to the bridge by accident. Lightoller was effectively accusing Phillips of negligence. Bride wrote an angry letter in 1936 shortly after Lightoller published his book. Bride condemned Lightoller's accusation, but he did not dispute in his letter that Phillips was on the collapsible.

 

[Mike Spooner]

In the small booklet of Jack Phillips from Godalming Museum.
There was a possibility Jack was just too exhausted to hang on the upside down lifeboat. As he had been up for many hours. 6 hours to fix the broken down wireless followed by hours in catching up with the back log of messages to be sent out.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Harold Bride testified in America and mentioned the death of Phillips. Bride was asked:

Q - You say there were a number of people on the boat, on the bottom of the boat that was bottom-up when you got there?
A - Yes.
Q - Do you know any of them?
A - I heard afterwards that the senior operator was on board.
Q - Mr. Phillips?
A - Mr. Phillips.
Q - Was on the boat?
A - Yes; I heard so afterwards.
Q - He did not survive, however?
A - He did not survive.
Q - Do you know whether he died going from the Titanic to the Carpathia?
A - He died on the way; yes. He died on board the upturned boat.
Q - What became of his body?
A - As far as I know, it was taken on board the Carpathia and buried from the Carpathia.
Q - Buried at sea?
A - Buried from the Carpathia.

Bride also spoke of Phillips body in his exclusive interview to the New York Times in 1912.

"From aft came the tunes of the ship's band, playing the ragtime tune, 'Autumn. ' Phillips ran aft, and that was the last I ever saw of him alive............At last the Carpathia was alongside, and the people were being taken up a rope ladder. Our boat drew near, and one by one the men were taken off of it. One man was dead. I passed him, and went to a ladder, although my feet pained me terribly. The dead man was Phillips. He died on the raft from exposure and cold. I guess he had been all in from work before the wreck came. He stood his ground until the crisis passed and then collapsed. But I hardly thought of that then; I didn't think much about anything. I tried the rope ladder."

Lightoller wrote a book and claimed that he spoke to Phillips on the collapsible boat and that Phillips told him about the vital ice warning from the SS Mesaba which (according to Lightoller) was not sent to the bridge by accident. Lightoller was effectively accusing Phillips of negligence. Bride wrote an angry letter in 1936 shortly after Lightoller published his book. Bride condemned Lightoller's accusation, but he did not dispute in his letter that Phillips was on the collapsible.

It seems to me that there is more than a bit of ambiguity in Bride's statements about seeing Phillips body on Collapsible B.

First, he is supposed to have said that he just "heard afterwards" that Phillips was on board the overturned lifeboat. Then he adds that 'as far as he knows' Phillips' body was taken on board the Carpathia and buried at sea from there. That sounds like he did not know for certain himself about Phillips being anywhere near Collapsible B

But then, he also says that he passed Phillips' body as he tried to get onto the ladder to board the Carpathia. That is a direct contradiction from the above impression.

As for Lightoller's 1935 book (Titanic and Other Ships) and Bride's letter in response, not contradicting a certain point (Phillips being on Collapsible B) does not mean he was agreeing with it.

But Bride did say that when they came out of their Radio shack, Phillips 'ran aft' while he himself went forward and ended-up near Collapsible B. I think for both of them it was just a chanced on the spot decision that paid off for one (Bride) and did not for the other (Phillips). They were inside the Radio shack through the ordeal sending out messages and very likely had very little clear idea about what was going on outside on the boat deck and elsewhere. It must have been very close to 02:15 when they came out of the room and split-up going opposite ways. I don't think that there was any time left for either of them to change their minds afterwards.

Another thing that I have thought a few times and something that is not clear in the deckplans. When Bride and Phillips came out of the Marconi room, on which side of the boat deck did they emerge? On the plans it seems as though the door of the Marconi room opened into a small corridor that ran broadside and if this was the case, they could have turned either way. Turning left would have taken them to the port side of the boat deck and turning right to starboard; if that was the case, would they have instinctively gone towards the listing port side, where Collapsible B was located? Also, with all the intervening structures and people, would either Bride or Phillips have been able to see people trying to free the two collapsibles? Boats A & B were lashed on top of the Officer's quarters which seem on the plans to be some way forward from the Marconi room and I felt that it was unlikely that the two radio operators would have seen Collapsible B "right in front of them" even if they had gone to the port side of the boat deck.

 

[Julian Atkins]

There are a number of versions of Bride's 'story'.

Aaron has very usefully posted the letter Bride wrote to the newspapers when Lightoller's autobiography was first published in 1935. Paul Lee covers this in some considerable detail on his website, and the clear inference is that Marconi Co threatened legal action and the text of the book was altered by the publishers (which is a bit odd in that you can't libel the dead).

There is also Bride's written report to Marconi Co at the time - which I think is generally regarded as the most accurate of his accounts.

He also was infamously paid for the New York Times newspaper interview when Carpathia got to New York, that is the most 'sensationalist' account.

He was recalled as a witness at both Inquiries a number of times.

Bride was not a very reliable witness at any time.

I don't think you can better the Iink Ioannis provided of George Behe's analysis:-

The Fate of Jack Phillips

It is well worth reading.

Unfortunately, the simple answer is that Phillips and Bride lost contact and Bride never saw Phillips again, and Phillips' body was never recovered.

(Allegedly Bride gave a very rare interview to a certain Ernest Robinson in 1954, but this has never been published to the best of my knowledge).

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Bride was not a very reliable witness at any time.

Agreed and neither was Lightoller for that matter.

Yes, I have read that Behe article and agree that it is a very good analysis of the statements about Phillips made by survivors on top of Collapsible B.

In his testimony at the American Inquiry, Lightoller is supposed to have told Senator Smith that Phillips was standing hear him (presumably on top of #B) and hung on till daylight talking about the various ships that had responded to his distress calls.

At the same time, Bride, who definitely survived on top of #B with Lightoller, deposed that the "called out to Phillips several times" but got no answer. Surely, if Phillips was standing near Lightoller, he would have either answered Bride's call or one of the others would have alerted the two sparks of each others' presence.

Bride also said that he learned later that Phillips had been aboard #B and was taken aboard the Carpathia to be buried at sea. But he also spoke at other times as though he saw Phillips' body on #B.

Archibald Gracie, another survivor on top of #B, wrote that the body that was taken on board Carpathia from the lifeboat was that of another crewman whom even Lightoller could not recognize.

Behe's article also seems to suggest that at some point Lightoller's testimony suggested that he had learned about Phillips being on board #B from Bride, who in turn "heard about it afterwards".

As for Thomas Whiteley, yet another #B man, his statements appear to have been different with each interview, as Ionnis nicely puts it.

All this makes me seriously doubt whether Jack Phillips was anywhere near Collapsible #B at any time, alive or dead.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Arun,

My approach is that there was a degree of wishful thinking on Bride's part in respect of his elder 'hero' and bunk mate as to his fate. You can understand this. But it was a naive approach of Bride, which is also understandable.

2 years later thousands of young lads like Bride and Phillips were marching over the trenches to be killed by machine gun fire in barbed wire because an Officer told them to do it and blew a whistle.

On Bride's conscience was that he and Phillips ignored ice warning messages and failed to take them to the bridge. Whether the bridge would have taken anymore notice of these messages than they did of the ones the bridge did receive is arguable. But there was a lot at stake with Marconi over all this.

And had Bride and Phillips given due and prompt weight to all 'MSG' wireless messages, and any messages of navigational status involving ice it is quite arguable that the disaster would not have happened.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Thanks Julian. I guardedly agree to some extent but we have to consider the times and circumstances.

Phillips and Bride were employed and presumably paid by the Marconi Company and not by White Star. But, as personnel on board the Titanic they were obliged to alert the bridge if the received or passed on any message that they felt were potential warnings to the ship they were on. But once they did that, their responsibility would be over.

Also, how much weight did they give to those ice warnings? Remember that no one on board the Titanic, least of all Phillips and Bride, were able to consider the situation with hindsight like we can. From their point of view, they were on the largest and one of the safest ships on sea at the time and while they might not have believed it to be 'unsinkable', they would have been excused to feeling extremely safe. Furthermore, they would have known that ice warnings were commonplace in the North Atlantic at that time of the year and at least a few had got through to the bridge. Therefore, I feel that it is a bit harsh to say that Phillips and Bride 'ignored' many ice warnings; once 2 or 3 messages were passed to the bridge, it would be the responsibility of the Captain and duty officers to do something about them and not the wireless operators'. It was not their place to urge deck officers to do anything about the messages they passed on.

I don't know if Phillips and Bride received gratuities depending on the number of private radio messages sent but if they did, I would not blame them for concentrating on working on Cape Race.

There is no question that there would have been several things in Bride's mind on that night and in the aftermath. That and perhaps pressure from "other sources" accounts for the lack of consistency in his statements about Phillips over the years.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Incidentally the photo of Jack Phillips in that article "The Fate of Jack Phillips" show Phillips in his Marconi uniform cap but that of Harold Bride is said to have been made when Bride was fifteen years old.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Arun,

You need to read George Turnball's evidence at the British Inquiry. He was Deputy Manager of Marconi in the UK. Marconi rules required 'MSG' messages and messages of navigational status to be given priority over commercial communications. Those were the rules.

Phillips and Bride both disobeyed those rules. There is considerable evidence of this.

Have a look at Bride's last examination on oath at the British Inquiry. On the evening of the 14th April, it is clear that 8.30pm was significant to Bride and Phillips as it was when Phillips was in communication with land and so could transmit the passenger messages that had accumulated. Both were off duty for quite a while beforehand.

I have stated this previously elsewhere, but Bride deliberately ignored by his own admission The Californian's 'MSG' of 3 icebergs seen originally because he was (by his own account) making up the accounts ie for commercial traffic.

In my view, Bride and Phillips were not heroes but directly responsible for Titanic's disaster.

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Steven Christian]

Julian you stated in your post above "And had Bride and Phillips given due and prompt weight to all 'MSG' wireless messages, and any messages of navigational status involving ice it is quite arguable that the disaster would not have happened." Was there anything in the messages after Titanic altered course that would have caused them to change what they were doing..i.e slow down, go further south ect. I'm not disputing your statement, i'm just curious. Thanks SteveC.

 

[Rob Lawes]

In my view, Bride and Phillips were not heroes but directly responsible for Titanic's disaster.

Hi Julian

I believe there's a massive amount of truth in this. Maybe not wholly responsible but certainly major players.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the only reason rescue came when it did was by accident rather than design. Had Cottam not listened to the news broadcast from Cape Cod and caught the traffic for MGY he may never have retuned his set and picked up the distress call. That's not to say that other vessels wouldn't have arrived on scene as we know they did subsequently. The additional hours of delay would have increased the chances of medical complications from exposure to the cold and increased the risk of scattering the boats or the risk of recovery as the breaze and sea state increased.

And talking of conspiracy theories as we have in other threads, I believe there is a good amount of evidence that points towards Bride and Cottam having been well coached. The Marcoi company certainly came out of the disaster smelling a lot cleaner than it should have done.

Regards

Rob.

 

[Aaron_2016]

Also, how much weight did they give to those ice warnings? Remember that no one on board the Titanic, least of all Phillips and Bride, were able to consider the situation with hindsight like we can.

It really comes down to the fatal ice warning from the SS Mesaba. It was sent to the Titanic on Sunday night when Lightoller was on duty, but he denied that he received that ice warning and stated that if he had known about it he would have stopped the ship. The wireless operator on the Mesaba testified that the message was sent to the Titanic and that he received acknowledgement from the wireless operator on the Titanic (Phillips) that he had received it. Yet Lightoller said the message was never handed to him as he was on duty on the bridge at the time.

Let us see what Bride did when he received an ice warning from the Californian. This might help us determine what Phillips would have done when he received the ice warning from the Mesaba.

Bride's testimony

Q - What did you do when you got that message?
A - I delivered it to the officer on the bridge.

Q - It was the ice report which you have told us of, and you delivered that at once to the officer on the bridge?
A - Yes.

Q - What was your practice when you got a message?
A - If it was for the navigating staff, or the Captain we delivered it personally.

Q - Could you tell us how long it was after you got the message that you delivered it on the bridge?
A - About two minutes.

Q - Did it strike you as an important message?
A - Well, those sort of messages are looked upon as important.

Q - So that you would deliver it as soon as you could?
A - Yes.

Q - All that you would have to do is to take down the message and go from your room on to the bridge to deliver it to the officer?
A - Yes.

Q - And that is your recollection of what you did?
A - Yes.

The Commissioner: Sir Robert, is there any doubt that this message did come to the knowledge of the officers?
Sir Robert Finlay: I think there is no doubt at all, my Lord.
The Attorney-General: We need not pursue it.

Yet when it came to the ice warning sent by the Mesaba which was acknowledged by Phillips, he simply forgot to send it to the bridge (according to Lightoller) and confessed with his dying words about his blunder to Lightoller who happened to be standing next to him on the collapsible. It does sound rather far fetched and something that Lightoller simply made up because the ice warning very likely was delivered to him and he knew he would be the prime target for blame in the disaster because no action was taken to reduce speed or alter course. It would mean the end of his career. Lightoller testified that if the ice warning had been handed to him he would do the following:

"It is customary for the message to be sent direct to the bridge......Captain Smith’s instructions were to open all telegrams and act on your own discretion."

If Lightoller did receive that ice warning I wonder what he did (or failed to do) when acting on his own discretion. He told the lookouts to keep a sharp lookout for ice, but he did not double the lookout, change course, or reduce speed. The haze was also witnessed on the horizon when Lightoller was on duty yet Lightoller said it was clear. It certainly appears that Lightoller was out to defend himself at all costs, so he denied the haze, and shifted the blame for the disaster onto a dead man (Phillips) who could not speak in his own defence. I believe this is why Bride became angry because his mate Phillips in his eyes was a professional and would not forget to deliver a vital ice warning to the bridge.

 

[Julian Atkins]

The Marcoi company certainly came out of the disaster smelling a lot cleaner than it should have done.

Especially as Sir Rufus Isaacs had bought shares in the USA Marconi Co and made a sizable profit as a result! His brother was George Isaacs UK Marconi MD so Turnball had to give evidence at the British Inquiry as Sir Rufus Isaacs was Attorney General and chief prosecuting Counsel at the British Inquiry!

Cheers,

Julian

 

[Julian Atkins]

Gosh this is getting a bit of speed that I can't keep up with, and I'm off to bed shortly!

I believe this is why Bride became angry because his mate Phillips in his eyes was a professional and would not forget to deliver a vital ice warning to the bridge.

Hi Aaron, there is ample evidence that Bride and Phillips deliberately ignored Ice warning messages.

This is also for Arun, who also asked...

(And I've posted this countless times before)

http://www.paullee.com/titanic/icewarnings.php

Scroll down half way down the page then learn all about the failures and mistakes of Phillips and Bride. Well worth reading carefully and in full when Paul starts on examining everything so far as to what Titanic received and what got to the bridge.

See also (as quoted in my earlier post) Bride's final testimony at the British Inquiry when he stated quite clearly he ignored Evans' (on The Californian) message warning of 3 ice bergs seen because he was doing his accounts. Those 3 bergs were only some 14 or 15 (or arguably less) miles away from Titanic as she approached on her course, catching up The Californian at her speed double that of The Californian.

Cheers,

Julian