Lightoller at the helm

[Mark Baber]

Moderator's hat on:

Please leave aside discussion of members' perceived posting tendencies. If a discussion stays too far, we'll address it.

Moderator's hat off.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Moderator's hat on:

Please leave aside discussion of members' perceived posting tendencies. If a discussion stays too far, we'll address it.

Moderator's hat off.

I was merely answering the collective question asked by the member in question. It was an explanation for that query.

 

[Jim Currie]

Moderator's hat on:

Please leave aside discussion of members' perceived posting tendencies. If a discussion stays too far, we'll address it.

Moderator's hat off.

Well said, Mark. However, I would point out that due to the nature and complexity of ship-board practices, such diversions are invitable when dicussing the happenings in a ship. As you know, it is not easy to paint a word picture in monosyllables or write answers in a taciturn manner when trying to explain a technical point to lay-persons. I am sure everyone here has heard of the expression "In otherwords".

 

[Aly Jones]

I have few questions on the outcome of lightollers career, how people preceved him if it were him at the helm and not Murdoch.

1) Would lightoller made sure he died that night knowing he was at the helm and a senior officer? (like what happen to Murdoch)

2) What would happen to his career considering he survived that night and being a senior officer on that very watch that struck the berg.? Etc.. His career didn't seem to be much affected after the disaster but he was a senior officer that night but he was not the officer that hit the berg, however what if it were lightoller that was the one at the helm that night? and survived which he did.

 

[Arun Vajpey]

1) Would lightoller made sure he died that night knowing he was at the helm and a senior officer? (like what happen to Murdoch)

2) What would happen to his career considering he survived that night and being a senior officer on that very watch that struck the berg.? Etc.. His career didn't seem to be much affected after the disaster but he was a senior officer that night but he was not the officer that hit the berg, however what if it were lightoller that was the one at the helm that night? and survived which he did.

First of all, I do not believe that Murdoch died that night simply because was the Duty Officer on the bridge. I do not believe that he committed suicide or made "sure" in any way that he did not survive. Murdoch died because he was doing his duty and happened to be in the "wrong place" as far as he was concerned during the frantic attempts to launch Collapsible A. That might have been his fate even if he had not been the Duty Officer at the time of the collision.

My next statement might sound more controversial, but it is a gut feeling that I have had for decades and grows stronger with passing years. I feel that Charles Lightoller was a born survivor; after the collision and all through the sinking, he had made allowance for his own survival. I am not claiming that he had any specific plans, but just that he was always ready to help Number One when the crunch came. That would have been the same if Lightoller had been the DO on the bridge instead of Murdoch at the time of collision.

As for Lightoller's life and career afterwards (had be been the DO and survived), it would very likely have been different, but he was canny enough to make a reasonable success of it somehow. I do not believe Lightoller was the sort of man who would let the loss of so many lives or any criticism levelled at him bother his conscience.

That is my personal opinion and will never change. Others might disagree of course, but there it is.

 

[Jim Currie]

I don't believe any of us want to get personal Jim, but admit that some of us have been guilty of that (including me). The reason is that you do have a tendency to go off at a tangent after starting well on a topic. Nobody is questioning your vast marine experience or the right to put forward your opinions but this tendency to drift into irrelevance after a while (if a few of us question your opinions) persists. Please don't ask me to give examples because they are scattered throughout several long threads, notably the currently closed one about Stanley Lord's 'guilt' etc.

Hello Arun.
I'm glad you appreciate my experience. I have no intention of "drifiting off" as you put it. When I extend an answer or when making a point, i do so in the attempt to crate a word picture.
I do not know if you know this, but I was trained by lecturers who were Officers at sea at the time of Titanic and ship board practices had barely changed from that time until I went to sea. In fact they barely changed up until the mid 60's. Consiquently when I see among these pages speculative re constructions of specific events which clash violently with my practical memories, I feel an irresistable urge to set the record strait. I hope you and others understand this.

 

[Jim Currie]

Still alive here thanks to the governor of the state of IL who followed guidelines from the experts as to how to open things up, unlike some other parts of the country where they acted like it was all a hoax.

As to the why Murdoch gave a second helm order, I do believe it was concern over keeping the helm hard-astarboard before the berg would pass clear of the stern. I'm aware of Olliver's choice of words, but he too admitted that he did not follow the berg after it passed aft of the bridge, only that he saw the peak of it at the time it passed the bridge. He also heard Moody confirm that the helm was hard-aport. Surely, that happened when the berg was well aft of the bridge, possibly 350 ft or thereabouts. (I'm assuming about 29 ft/s speed - down from 38 ft/s - due to increased hydrodynamic resistance during a turn.) Anyway, would he not have thought that leaving the helm hard-astarboard (left full rudder) might have left the stern in danger of striking the berg? This is all happening over a period of just a few seconds.

As far as Hichen's testimony of there being only one helm order given, I believe he was only speaking about the time prior to the vessel striking the berg, not after.


Yes, I do agree.

Hello Sam.

Do you want to continue this? It seems I bore so many and far be it for me to upset the apple cart.

 

[Samuel Halpern]

Do you want to continue this?

I believe I said all that needs to be said about that second helm order in my post #25 above, and I believe that has been my opinion all along.

Are you still on Madeira?

 

[Tim Gerard]

I have few questions on the outcome of lightollers career, how people preceved him if it were him at the helm and not Murdoch.

1) Would lightoller made sure he died that night knowing he was at the helm and a senior officer? (like what happen to Murdoch)

2) What would happen to his career considering he survived that night and being a senior officer on that very watch that struck the berg.? Etc.. His career didn't seem to be much affected after the disaster but he was a senior officer that night but he was not the officer that hit the berg, however what if it were lightoller that was the one at the helm that night? and survived which he did.

For your 2nd question, there is the story with Lightoller helping the Dunkirk evacuation in his own private yacht. The story is that one of the British sailors he was helping evacuate found out Lightoller has been an officer from the Titanic and tried to jump off, panicking, thinking he'd be safer swimming for it than staying on a yacht commanded by someone who had been an officer of the Titanic. That's the only example I can think of, and I take that story with a little bit of a grain of salt.

 

[Jim Currie]

I believe I said all that needs to be said about that second helm order in my post #25 above, and I believe that has been my opinion all along.

Are you still on Madeira?

No, I am in Scotland.
I am well aware of your opinion regarding the second helm order, Sam. However, I do not believe that any of us know enough about the subject to know that all that needs to be said has been said.

 

[Aly Jones]

Arun, I also believe lightoller was a born survivor. Even when he wanted to go down, he didn't.

 

[Aly Jones]

Tim, yes I've read that before. However, I get the impression the young soldier was having a joke.

 

[Julian Atkins]

Hi Jim (and others),

Jim, I was not being personal towards you in a derogatory manner; just an observation that we have rehearsed this all before, and gone over it many times.

For Tim Gerard, there is not the slightest evidence at the time of Dunkirk of soldiers being reluctant to get aboard 'Sundowner'.

And for Arun, if it was me facing getting killed in freezing water, and I had a loaded revolver handy, I think I know what I would do. Lightoller claimed inexplicably that his revolver wasn't loaded. Lowe's own personal revolver was certainly loaded and used/fired

 

[Arun Vajpey]

Arun, I also believe lightoller was a born survivor. Even when he wanted to go down, he didn't.

I doubt very much if Lightoller ever 'wanted' to go down.

 

[Haashir Ahmad]

Hi Julian,
Yeah they were not being careful, were they? It seems they had this unsinkable crap in their heads believing that nothing could sink this ship. Like you mention all other ships were taking it easy that night.
Since lightoller had been shipwrecked many times before, (and none of the others haven't) I just thought he might had known their was no escaping the collision and may stop the ship and let her hit berg head on softly. It's just a thought, not stating facts.

Was Boxhall on light duties that night directed by Smith or any senior officers?

Boxhall was not on watch in the bridge but was in the officers quarters having some tea so he said in an interview and I also think in his testimony, however Hitchens, Moody and Murdoch were at the bridge and keeping a watch.