Lucy Noël Martha Countess of Rothes

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Noelle Rothes was a religious, fairly conservative woman, though she was independent in her own way. She was devoted to her family and to charities, and was quite hands-on in her work — no standing on the sidelines for her. She was also chatty and pleasant from all accounts. Her grandson recalled her as a "loving person" with a good sense of humor, yet admitted she could be brusque when challenged. So, like the rest of us, she wasn’t perfect. I don’t think she was a snob but she was a woman of her class and generation, and some of those attributes aren’t in keeping with our own more democratic views. So I’m not sure how far-off the mark Cameron’s countess was, except that the insincerity I picked up on (i.e., smiling while saying unkind things) wasn’t what I found to be a part of the real woman’s personality.

 

[Marilyn Lena Penner]

It's an interesting thought. Were Edwardian ladies narrow minded - or do we assume they were? If Edwardian ladies were so, does that preclude them from being strong, brave and willing and able to take charge?

I think we know, or heard of, at least one brave, charming, take charge lady in our time who, unashamed, shows a prejudice against something we are strongly for.

Agatha Christie was a young woman when Titanic sank, so she knew Edwardian women. She described her Miss Marple as a lady whom no crime could shock because she had a Victorian mind. The Victorians had seen evil and horror and taken it in stride, according to Christie. Miss Marple gently put people into their places in society and expected people to behave politely and with due deference - she was no democrat - but I never got the impression she was a snob, or that she would've been shocked by Jack's presence in first class. She also wasn't strange to me.

I grew up knowing ladies like her: charitable, intelligent women who had some gently spoken but firm prejudices. And most were prejudiced against rude people. They disapproved of treating minorities as inferiors, for instance. Immigrants or newcomers to the community were 'not like us, naturally'; but that's 'not their fault'. The crime in those ladies' eyes was if 'one of us' were less than polite and neighbourly.

So I think the 'Edwardian lady' a fine person, and that what narrow-mindedness she showed was kinder spirited, or at least more polite and oblique.

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Marilyn, you’ve put it perfectly. It was a matter of manners and charity that distinguished the Edwardian lady; her prejudices were "built-in" but she treated people with caring concern. Love Agatha Christie, by the way, especially her Miss Marple!

 

[Vitezslav Ivicic]

I have already heard that she was strong and a "loving person" and I was shocked when I've seen her expresion when Jack kisses her hand in the first class dining saloon! I've never noticed it before and I was little surprised about it. And also the other scenes. When I watch the film in czech, it is not so tragic, but when I hear it in english, it hurts my ears and disturbs me! I think she was other than in the movie.

And after I read Discretions and Indiscretins, I think that neither Lucy DUff-Gordon is there not well portrayed. And "Molly" Brown as well. Her notice about Titanic and screaming people there "you can not see this every day" (or something in that way) is terrible, I hate this - when somebody tries to do a movie more dramatical to have more people in a cinema (this or "We are prepared to go down like gentlemen. But we would like a brandy!")

 

[Veronika Kelemenová]

Bola by som velmi rada keby si mi ju poslal. Ale na viacerych strankach som citala ze existuje daka fotka na ktorej je grofka Rothesova odfotena dakde na Titanicu. Pravdepodobne to bolo pri tom clne, na promenadnej palube.

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

For all that I've been hearing, I'm quite sure Noelle wasn't a snob, if so, she would be more egocentric and not so worried with charities and parties to obtain funds for her charity work and social events. But well, I wouldn't be surprised if she really said "Look, there comes that vulgar woman,the Brown". I'm sure she had a strong conservative Edwardian personality, but she was certainly a progressist woman, like Randy once said me. She was that kind of women that followed the rules and maintained the traditions and social restrictions but, in the same way, she had solid ideas and a view of the future and I may believe she was open to new mentalities and life styles and realities.

Regards, João

 

[Brian Ahern]

I always noticed her look when Jack kisses her hand, and got a kick out of it. I don't think it seemed snobbish - I think she just looked slightly taken aback for a moment, because what Jack does is unusual.

I've also always felt that she seems polite to the steward in the scene after the collision. She thanks him when he asks if he can do anything for her.

And Rose does describe Ruth's companions as being "gracious and curious" about Jack when meeting him on the deck.

The thing that's always struck me as more unrealistic is the scene of the Countess gossiping somewhat maliciously with Ruth in the lounge.

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

Hi Brian!

Well, you are absolutely right about Rose's opinions. As I understood she said that ONLY her mother didn't like Jack and we can see the Countess smiling when she's telling a bit of the failed suicide attempt.

Gossiping maliciously? Don't think so. When they are in the lounge they are just talking about clothes and fashion, a normal behavior for a high society lady like Noelle.

Regards, João

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

Does anybody know who are the "table companions" of Noelle in the dinners? I know somebody has references about some of the passengers but did she stated something regarding this? Any information would be aprecciated.

Best wishes,
João

 

[Grant Woollacott]

Today in 1956 The countess died at age 77

[Moderator's note: This post, which was in another thread in this subtopic has been moved to the pre-existing one on the same subject. JDT]

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

Amen to that great lady!

 

[Brian Ahern]

João - in answer to your earlier question, this thread on the Cavendishes mentions them as potential dining companions of the Countess of Rothes. The poster who mentioned the Countess recalled her dining room steward putting her at a table of six.

I believe Fletcher Fellowes Lambert-Williams is said to have been in contact with the Countess and Miss Cherry after the collision, but there is nothing to indicate he was their dining companion.

It has also been said on this board that the Countess at some point during the voyage had tea with Marian Kenyon, though I can't quote the source and have no idea how they would have happened across each other's paths.

The link to the Cavendish thread:
https://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/discus/messages/5811/49557.html?1111501109

 

[João Carlos Pereira Martins]

Thanks Brian. Yes I once read that Miss Cherry and the Countess made friendship with the Cavendishes and that Julia was probably one of Noelle's companions at the afternoon teas in the lounge room but I, stupiditly, didn't realize they could be her dining companions either.

Thanks again for the info.

Regards, João

 

[Grant Woollacott]

I heard that the Countess of Rothes and her husband were broke and she basically paid with the title "The Countess of Rothes" i don't know if this is true can anyone back this up?

 

[Randy Bryan Bigham]

Read first, ask questions later:

A Matter of Course