Grant Woollacott
Member
Randy i read your article several times i just must have missed that detail. thanks.
Lucy Noël Martha Countess of Rothes
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Martin Williams
Member
I was thrilled to read Randy's wonderful article about Noelle Rothes. Her story - that of a beautiful young aristocrat showing such heroism in the face of terrible tragedy - has fascinated me for as long as I've been interested in the 'Titanic'. So to read more about the actual woman behind the legend...well, I don't think that Randy's potted biography will ever be bettered. And I was intrigued to see the images of Leslie House in the posts above - obviously a very impressive pile, even in its current unhappy state.
It might interest those following this thread to know more about Noelle's childhood home. Prinknash Park was the Gloucestershire seat of her parents, Thomas and Clementina Dyer Edwardes, who were themselves cross-Channel passengers on the 'Titanic'. For over a century, 'Country Life', the bible of the landed classes here in England, has profiled a different country house each week - a practice which has continued to this day. On 22nd September, 1906, it was the turn of Prinknash. The article, running to five whole pages, gives a detailed history of the house, going all the way back to the fourteenth century. The property has an absolutely idyllic situation: after a visit in August, 1774, the Society wit and gossip Horace Walpole wrote of Prinknash's position on 'a glorious but impracticable hill, in the midst of a little forest of beech, commanding Elysium'.
The magazine ran photographs of the house from various angles - not quite in the same architectural league as Blenheim or Chatsworth, it was still a pile of quite considerable splendour (albeit reduced to a slightly more domestic scale). The interiors were similarly grand and included magnificent Jacobean chimney pieces, as well as mullioned windows and carved oak panelling. After the house became an abbey on the death of Thomas Dyer Edwardes, one entire room was dismantled and carted off to an American museum! I was delighted to learn that Dyer Edwardes constructed a new gateway to the stable-yard to commemorate Noelle's marriage to Lord Rothes - on it, he had carved both his arms and those of the bridegroom. I assume that these can still be seen, although I've never been to Prinknash myself.
I'm afraid I don't possess a scanner to post the images here - and I suspect I would be contravening copyright regulations if I tried. But I would urge anybody who is sufficiently interested to seek out this particular issue of 'Country Life' to read the article for themselves. Nothing better illustrates the prestige of the English landed classes during this period than to see a house like Prinknash in full Edwardian splendour.
And Brian is quite right - judging from their pictures, Lord and Lady Rothes must indeed have cut quite a dash in Society, turning many heads when they entered a ballroom!
It might interest those following this thread to know more about Noelle's childhood home. Prinknash Park was the Gloucestershire seat of her parents, Thomas and Clementina Dyer Edwardes, who were themselves cross-Channel passengers on the 'Titanic'. For over a century, 'Country Life', the bible of the landed classes here in England, has profiled a different country house each week - a practice which has continued to this day. On 22nd September, 1906, it was the turn of Prinknash. The article, running to five whole pages, gives a detailed history of the house, going all the way back to the fourteenth century. The property has an absolutely idyllic situation: after a visit in August, 1774, the Society wit and gossip Horace Walpole wrote of Prinknash's position on 'a glorious but impracticable hill, in the midst of a little forest of beech, commanding Elysium'.
The magazine ran photographs of the house from various angles - not quite in the same architectural league as Blenheim or Chatsworth, it was still a pile of quite considerable splendour (albeit reduced to a slightly more domestic scale). The interiors were similarly grand and included magnificent Jacobean chimney pieces, as well as mullioned windows and carved oak panelling. After the house became an abbey on the death of Thomas Dyer Edwardes, one entire room was dismantled and carted off to an American museum! I was delighted to learn that Dyer Edwardes constructed a new gateway to the stable-yard to commemorate Noelle's marriage to Lord Rothes - on it, he had carved both his arms and those of the bridegroom. I assume that these can still be seen, although I've never been to Prinknash myself.
I'm afraid I don't possess a scanner to post the images here - and I suspect I would be contravening copyright regulations if I tried. But I would urge anybody who is sufficiently interested to seek out this particular issue of 'Country Life' to read the article for themselves. Nothing better illustrates the prestige of the English landed classes during this period than to see a house like Prinknash in full Edwardian splendour.
And Brian is quite right - judging from their pictures, Lord and Lady Rothes must indeed have cut quite a dash in Society, turning many heads when they entered a ballroom!
Doni McLerran
Guest
I would have liked to have seen her actively portrayed as the chatty lady in the lifeboat who was asked to take the tiller, doing what she could to help keep up morale in such a terrible hour.
Martin Williams
Member
I agree, Doni! I love the famous description of Noelle Rothes 'having a lot to say' in Lifeboat No. 8. Sadly for us, James Cameron succumbed to the all-too-obvious temptation to cast her as just another narrow-minded first-class snob. As we all know, this interpretation of her character is not supported by the facts. Randy Bryan Bigham's wonderful article really helped to bring the courageous countess to vivid and sympathetic life.
In the Edwardian Era it was possible to find kind and generous individuals in every walk of life. It was equally possible to find shallow, cruel and cold-hearted people too. Human nature never changes! Nevertheless, we tend to imagine that the rich and titled are somehow different - behaviour which wouldn't raise an eyebrow if we encountered it in 'one of the masses' seems surprising in a marquess or an earl. This attitude can apply equally to their good as well as their bad characteristics. In this respect, I suppose that the aristocracy labour under a greater burden of expectation than the rest of us. This is why the conduct of Noelle Rothes shines forth so brightly in the dark story of the 'Titanic' and why (however unfairly) Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon is so reviled.
Of course, the countess may well have entertained patrician attitudes or prejudices which would seem unpalatable to us now. 1912 was not 2007 and it would be wrong to impose our own values upon her. But I see no reason to believe that Noelle was anything other than a good wife, a loving mother, a gracious hostess and a fair-minded mistress to those in her employ.
In the Edwardian Era it was possible to find kind and generous individuals in every walk of life. It was equally possible to find shallow, cruel and cold-hearted people too. Human nature never changes! Nevertheless, we tend to imagine that the rich and titled are somehow different - behaviour which wouldn't raise an eyebrow if we encountered it in 'one of the masses' seems surprising in a marquess or an earl. This attitude can apply equally to their good as well as their bad characteristics. In this respect, I suppose that the aristocracy labour under a greater burden of expectation than the rest of us. This is why the conduct of Noelle Rothes shines forth so brightly in the dark story of the 'Titanic' and why (however unfairly) Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon is so reviled.
Of course, the countess may well have entertained patrician attitudes or prejudices which would seem unpalatable to us now. 1912 was not 2007 and it would be wrong to impose our own values upon her. But I see no reason to believe that Noelle was anything other than a good wife, a loving mother, a gracious hostess and a fair-minded mistress to those in her employ.
David Fletcher
Member
I found this site quite accidentally while doing some genealogy research. Coincidentally I lived in Leslie, Fife for about 3 years leaving about 4 years ago. I lived in what was the, "Kirk on the Green", the church owned by the Church of Scotland situated on Leslie Green which is across from the house main gates. This church was bought by the local housing association and turned into houses and flats. The front door of the church was my front door!
The graveyard is still behind the church but was not used for a long time. The latest headstones were from the thirties from memory. The main feature of the graveyard is the Leslie family Mausoleum. It's somewhat in a state of disrepair as is the graveyard now. Fife Council are in charge of it's care but haven't secured it, merely cutting the grass. Last time I saw it they put up security fencing around the building.
I can confirm that Noelle's husband was buried there. There is a plaque on the right hand side wall displaying the fact. Most of the important Leslie family members are buried there. There are also employees graves all around too.
It's a sad fact that most people in the area have no knowledge of the Leslie family and their history. No mention was made of it at school and I only got interested because of living near it. Incidentally, Leslie House has still not been converted into flats yet. There is some argument about some of the surrounding land being cleared to build new housing. The south end of the land has had some new builds but they are not really on the house grounds. An old estate cottage that was derelict has been fully restored though.
If you want mt to find out more let me know.
David
The graveyard is still behind the church but was not used for a long time. The latest headstones were from the thirties from memory. The main feature of the graveyard is the Leslie family Mausoleum. It's somewhat in a state of disrepair as is the graveyard now. Fife Council are in charge of it's care but haven't secured it, merely cutting the grass. Last time I saw it they put up security fencing around the building.
I can confirm that Noelle's husband was buried there. There is a plaque on the right hand side wall displaying the fact. Most of the important Leslie family members are buried there. There are also employees graves all around too.
It's a sad fact that most people in the area have no knowledge of the Leslie family and their history. No mention was made of it at school and I only got interested because of living near it. Incidentally, Leslie House has still not been converted into flats yet. There is some argument about some of the surrounding land being cleared to build new housing. The south end of the land has had some new builds but they are not really on the house grounds. An old estate cottage that was derelict has been fully restored though.
If you want mt to find out more let me know.
David
Martin Williams
Member
The link I'm attaching below provides some mouth-watering details about the incredibly lavish pageant, 'A Fete at Versailles', which was held at the Royal Albert Hall in London during the summer of 1913.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~lnbdds/home/rah/index.htm
In the period immediately prior to the Great War, high society went mad for these epic historical affairs and the guest-list for this one in particular shimmers with not merely dozens, but hundreds, of names of the most illustrious members of the international beau monde. I'm 99.9% certain that Norman and Noelle Rothes were there on the night in question but, frustratingly, I've lost the reference to their participation I found in the archives of The Times and I can't for the life of me relocate it now. One way or another, I'm sure they had fun. With entre-act entertainment provided by the legendary ballerina Anna Pavlova, you'd have to be pretty jaded not to!
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~lnbdds/home/rah/index.htm
In the period immediately prior to the Great War, high society went mad for these epic historical affairs and the guest-list for this one in particular shimmers with not merely dozens, but hundreds, of names of the most illustrious members of the international beau monde. I'm 99.9% certain that Norman and Noelle Rothes were there on the night in question but, frustratingly, I've lost the reference to their participation I found in the archives of The Times and I can't for the life of me relocate it now. One way or another, I'm sure they had fun. With entre-act entertainment provided by the legendary ballerina Anna Pavlova, you'd have to be pretty jaded not to!
Brian Ahern
Member
Wow! Diana Manners, Vida Sackville-West, Nancy Astor, Lady Curzon! If you were writing a historical novel set amongst the great-and-grand of Edwardian London, these are just a few of the names you'd want to include that also happen to be on this program.
And some of the lesser stars on the list are related to the future great-and-grand. Lady Rose Bowes-Lyon is sister of the Queen Mum. "H. de Trafford" is likely Humphrey de Trafford, the great-grandfather of Camilla Parker-Bowles.
I'm guessing "Mrs Astor" is Nancy, not Ava; and "Mrs Leeds" is Nancy Leeds, the future Princess Christopher of Greece, whom we discussed on the Graham thread, she having lived in their house in Connecticut.
And some of the lesser stars on the list are related to the future great-and-grand. Lady Rose Bowes-Lyon is sister of the Queen Mum. "H. de Trafford" is likely Humphrey de Trafford, the great-grandfather of Camilla Parker-Bowles.
I'm guessing "Mrs Astor" is Nancy, not Ava; and "Mrs Leeds" is Nancy Leeds, the future Princess Christopher of Greece, whom we discussed on the Graham thread, she having lived in their house in Connecticut.
Brian Ahern
Member
A correction - Humphrey de Trafford was grandfather to Andrew Parker Bowles, not great-grandfather to Camilla.
Martin Williams
Member
Brian, my own first thought was that the 'Mrs Astor' listed is probably Nancy Langhorne Astor, mistress of Cliveden and future M.P. Her husband, Waldorf, would not inherit his father's title until 1919. Then again, it could conceivably be Ava Willing Astor, since she was most certainly knocking around in London Society at that date and even made an appearance at court during the same summer season.
'Lady Curzon' is not the viceroy's wife, Mary Leiter, since she had died back in 1906. Instead, she is a different Mary, Viscountess Curzon and future Countess Howe, who was a celebrated beauty in her own right. Here she is pictured with Lord Lascelles at Ascot in 1913:
http://www.jamd.com/image/g/3425665
The Hon Victoria Sackville-West (or 'Vita' as she was, and remains, more commonly known) was very shortly to wed the diplomat, writer and diarist, Harold Nicholson, a highly tempestuous union chronicled in their son Nigel's book, Portrait of a Marriage. During the Great War, and into the Twenties and Thirties, Vita would have lesbian affairs with Alice Keppel's daughter, Violet Trefusis, and author Virginia Woolf. Her novel, The Edwardians, which was first published in 1930, is the very best fictional depiction of life in English high society prior to 1914, narrated by one who had an intimate first-hand knowledge of it.
Lady Desborough was one of the period's great hostesses, a prominent member of the Souls, and mother of two sons, Billy and Julian, both of whom would be killed fighting in 1915. Her third and only surviving son would die in a car crash in 1926. Her long and fascinating career was examined in one of last year's best biographies, Ettie: The Intimate Life and Dauntless Spirit of Lady Desborough by Richard Davenport-Hines:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ettie-Intimate-Dauntless-Spirit-Desborough/dp/0297851748
Ettie's husband, first and only Lord Desborough, played an important role in bringing the Olympic Games to London in 1908 and was a friend of Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon (the two men were on the British fencing team together).
Another name worthy of note is that of the Countess of Lytton. She had been the beautiful Pamela Plowden and was the first great love of Winston Churchill, before he married Clementine Hozier. She and Nancy Astor are pictured together at a costume ball in 1910 in the new biography of Lady Desborough I've mentioned above. All three women knew one another and shared a rather uneasy relationship.
Lastly, I'd pick up on Sybil Sassoon, yet another ravishing beauty, and the product of a marriage between two of the great Jewish banking dynasties, Rothschild as well as Sassoon. She married the very handsome Lord Rocksavage in 1913 and eventually became Marchioness of Cholmondeley and chatelaine of one of England's greatest stately homes, Houghton Hall in Norfolk. She was very memorably painted by John Singer Sargent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Sassoon
'Lady Curzon' is not the viceroy's wife, Mary Leiter, since she had died back in 1906. Instead, she is a different Mary, Viscountess Curzon and future Countess Howe, who was a celebrated beauty in her own right. Here she is pictured with Lord Lascelles at Ascot in 1913:
http://www.jamd.com/image/g/3425665
The Hon Victoria Sackville-West (or 'Vita' as she was, and remains, more commonly known) was very shortly to wed the diplomat, writer and diarist, Harold Nicholson, a highly tempestuous union chronicled in their son Nigel's book, Portrait of a Marriage. During the Great War, and into the Twenties and Thirties, Vita would have lesbian affairs with Alice Keppel's daughter, Violet Trefusis, and author Virginia Woolf. Her novel, The Edwardians, which was first published in 1930, is the very best fictional depiction of life in English high society prior to 1914, narrated by one who had an intimate first-hand knowledge of it.
Lady Desborough was one of the period's great hostesses, a prominent member of the Souls, and mother of two sons, Billy and Julian, both of whom would be killed fighting in 1915. Her third and only surviving son would die in a car crash in 1926. Her long and fascinating career was examined in one of last year's best biographies, Ettie: The Intimate Life and Dauntless Spirit of Lady Desborough by Richard Davenport-Hines:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ettie-Intimate-Dauntless-Spirit-Desborough/dp/0297851748
Ettie's husband, first and only Lord Desborough, played an important role in bringing the Olympic Games to London in 1908 and was a friend of Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon (the two men were on the British fencing team together).
Another name worthy of note is that of the Countess of Lytton. She had been the beautiful Pamela Plowden and was the first great love of Winston Churchill, before he married Clementine Hozier. She and Nancy Astor are pictured together at a costume ball in 1910 in the new biography of Lady Desborough I've mentioned above. All three women knew one another and shared a rather uneasy relationship.
Lastly, I'd pick up on Sybil Sassoon, yet another ravishing beauty, and the product of a marriage between two of the great Jewish banking dynasties, Rothschild as well as Sassoon. She married the very handsome Lord Rocksavage in 1913 and eventually became Marchioness of Cholmondeley and chatelaine of one of England's greatest stately homes, Houghton Hall in Norfolk. She was very memorably painted by John Singer Sargent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Sassoon
Martin Williams
Member
This website contains a handful of period photographs of the grounds and interiors of Leslie House, where Noelle Rothes lived with her husband and children in the years prior to the Great War:
http://www.sundialproperties.co.uk/current/index.php?ID=31
http://www.sundialproperties.co.uk/current/index.php?ID=31
Jonathan Granato
Member
Maybe when I'm growed up I'll post a spanking new thread. Until then I shall lurk on the coattails of those with more guts than I,..
One thing that's recurring is that PTSD wasn't known in 1912. However, when the Countess heard The Tales of Hoffman a year later whilst dining out she was overcome with the, "sense of cold and intense horror associated with the sinking." Lawrence Beesley was by all accounts unaffected but when visiting the seashore he would face away from the water. Also, later in life, if the subject of the tragedy arose he would leave the room and display signs of agitation.
I was telling my father about PTSD as it relates to the sinking. I told him I think there was lots of 'survivor's guilt', and actual shame, to have survived when so many perished. & that it wasn't talked about, if one was a survivor. In fact I believe survivors kept it to themselves. It seems only Molly Brown dined out on the sinking.
Another thing wot (sic) occurred to me that I shared with my dad was why anybody would book an inside stateroom. Then, like a flash, it hit me: the ocean isn't pretty, esp. the North Atlantic. Read Arnold Bennett's account of sailing to Noo Yawk on RMS Lusitania in 1912; there seems to be an underlying unease about it (The Arnold Bennett Blog: Exploring 'Lucy'). I was telling my dad that before the 1950s, if you wished to travel from Europe to North America, you took a boat. But, just as the fear of flying exists, there was palpable fear of sailing across the North Atlantic. Esp. after the Titanic went down; all the lifeboats in the world wouldn't have given me a shred of confidence if I'd harboured a fear of sailing the North Atlantic. So, an inside stateroom meant you could conceivably avoid looking at the surface of the sea for the entire voyage.
GERMANICUS
Guest
That so called photo of Rothes standing next to Boat 8 is unsubstantiated.
When you look at Walter Lord's illustrated version of "A Night to Remember", it shows that photo, and simply states that "...The Countess of Rothes would be at its tiller 4 nights later". Then successive books show the same photo stating that it was Rothes standing next to the boat!
I mean, have a close look for yourself at Lord's book.
And that brings me to another thing about the Countess.
Exactly what did this society woman DO to deserve hero status? Just sitting at the tiller of boat 8 doesn't seem to be much. She was probably too privelaged to feel that she had to take an oath and row the bloody thing. But of course, the Countess had probably never done an honest day's work in her entire life. She is not on record as insisting that boat 8 go back to pick up survivors as "Molly" Brown and others did, so I think the entirety of her claim to hero status rests on the fact that other passengers and crew were awestruck simply by being in the presense of a titled woman "roughing it" with the Plebeians.
I do acknowledge that she didn't really want the publicity generated by the sinking, but it still did not stop her from "dining out" on the high profile all of this generated for her
When you look at Walter Lord's illustrated version of "A Night to Remember", it shows that photo, and simply states that "...The Countess of Rothes would be at its tiller 4 nights later". Then successive books show the same photo stating that it was Rothes standing next to the boat!
I mean, have a close look for yourself at Lord's book.
And that brings me to another thing about the Countess.
Exactly what did this society woman DO to deserve hero status? Just sitting at the tiller of boat 8 doesn't seem to be much. She was probably too privelaged to feel that she had to take an oath and row the bloody thing. But of course, the Countess had probably never done an honest day's work in her entire life. She is not on record as insisting that boat 8 go back to pick up survivors as "Molly" Brown and others did, so I think the entirety of her claim to hero status rests on the fact that other passengers and crew were awestruck simply by being in the presense of a titled woman "roughing it" with the Plebeians.
I do acknowledge that she didn't really want the publicity generated by the sinking, but it still did not stop her from "dining out" on the high profile all of this generated for her
GERMANICUS
Guest
Sorry, that should be "take an OAR and row the bloody thing" not OATH
Steven Christian
Member
I've never read anything bad about her. In fact just the opposite. She did what she could to help out. Nothing more nothing less. Your criticism seems unwarrented. She was born into a role and from all I've read she played it well. She took the tiller at first and later assisted with rowing. Later on the Carpathia she help take care of many of the survivors.
P.S...theres an edit tab you can use to correct posts. I know as I have to use it all the time myself. Cheers.
P.S...theres an edit tab you can use to correct posts. I know as I have to use it all the time myself. Cheers.
GERMANICUS
Guest
I wonder how much money she contributed to survivor families.
That's the sort of help they needed.
I bet my bottom dollar she didn't contribute a cracker.
Her position in a lifeboat was garanteed by her first class ticket and her social station.
I'm not carried away by turn of the century wowsers making hero's of the rich and privileged just for being there
That's the sort of help they needed.
I bet my bottom dollar she didn't contribute a cracker.
Her position in a lifeboat was garanteed by her first class ticket and her social station.
I'm not carried away by turn of the century wowsers making hero's of the rich and privileged just for being there
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