Prominent Non-Passengers Morgan and Hershey

[Michael H. Standart]

>>If there's another way of locating the evidence, then I'm all for it.<<

Would the landfill some of these documents ended up in be a good start? (And where's a good archeaologist when you need one?)

 

[Mark Robert Hopkins]

Well, we could call Indiana Jones, if he's around. I hear he's really good at finding things.

. . . or there's Bob Ballard, who was once said to have found a famous stubbornly elusive wreck (actually, more than one).

Seriously, though, with the passage of time, some evidence becomes more and more difficult to find.

Where's a miracle when you need one?

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

Where's a miracle when you need one?

Exactly. That's what needed in this case.​

 

[Michael H. Standart]

>>Where's a miracle when you need one?<<

Or a time machine so we could get our mits on all those records before they were dumped, shredded, or incinerated. Guess we'll just have to work with whatever survived.

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Jason-

>>Up until Titanic, it was Bruce Ismay (I forget how many vessels, as he was New York City's WSL agent for a time) who represented the line on maiden voyages<<

Just searching on the Ellis Island Website, the name of J. Bruce Ismay comes up rather frequently...a "frequent flyer" of the time.

Also, acting as the Defense Lawyer for Jean Negulesco (LOL) would passenger lists and cabin numbers for passengers on the Titanic have been readily available in 1953, or before Walter Lord's book ? (This was in reference to the Astors being shown as coming from an inside cabin on "A" Deck in the 1953 movie.)

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Hi Robert,

quote:

Just searching on the Ellis Island Website, the name of J. Bruce Ismay comes up rather frequently...a "frequent flyer" of the time

Yes, Bruce Ismay traveled quite frequently between London and New York, as head of White Star and IMM. Mark Baber is more versed in this than I am, so he can give you an exact date, but from what I recall it was in the early 1880's that Ismay started traveling back and forth. So, it would have been about 30 years.

As far as the passengers lists and cabin numbers go, it may have been easy to obtain them, but I'm really not sure. They may have been available, but perhaps it wasn't known to a lot of people. I could be wrong though.​

 

[Mark Baber]

One of the appendices to Oldham's The Ismay Line is a listing of Bruce Ismay's North Atlantic crossings. There are 39 roundtrips; the first in 1873 and the last in 1912. (There's also one eastbound trip, the completion of a round-the-world trip which began by JBI's traveling to New Zealand on Doric I)

The only maiden voyages in this list appear to be those of Adriatic II, Megantic (return leg only), Olympic and Titanic. He was also on the MV of Ionic I to New Zealand (on charter to the New Zealand Shipping Co.) in 1883.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

quote:

There are 39 roundtrips; the first in 1873

Ah, even earlier that I thought. Thanks, Mark.​

 

[Robert T. Paige]

Hi Jason-

Thanks for the info on J. Bruce Ismay.
The list I was looking at only went back to 1893.

I suppose the comparison of any other movie with ANTR goes back to my old paraphrasing of the famous Bill Rose quote ... only I changed it to read : "For entertainment, come to "Titanic" (1997) or "Titanic" (1953); for education, go to "A Night to Remember" (1958). LOL.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

You're welcome, Robert. Glad to help.

 

[Mark Baber]

This is interesting, and certainly doesn't make it sound like Morgan had plans to sail west on 10 April at least as of two weeks (or more) earlier.

 

[Jason D. Tiller]

Very interesting, indeed, Mark. I agree, that article puts the rumour to rest once and for all.

Thank you for that.

 

[Mark Baber]

Based on the coverage that appeared in The New York Times, it seems that Morgan returned to Europe from Egypt in mid-March and moved about Italy for a few weeks before going to Aix-les-Bains, where he was staying when Titanic sank. I've now added all of the NYT articles I could find from after his return to Italy through 14 April, as well as a couple of others, to his ET biography page. Apart from the 29 March article which I mentioned earlier in this thread, there's not much about when he planned to return, but there is this, from an article published on 14 April:

quote:

In his trips abroad he has followed practically the same programme for
years, sailing at the end of the Winter, visiting France, Italy, and the
Continent generally, until the London season opens. May, therefore,
usually finds him at Dover House and, in obedience to another
established habit, he invariably returns to America in time for the
height of the season at Bar Harbor.

Consistent with this description, in both 1911 and 1912 Morgan returned to the U.S. from his "winter" in Europe in mid-to-late July.

Titanic's MV? I think not.​

 

[Scott Mingus]

The Hershey Museum here in Pennsylvania has a large display board on M. S. Hershey's plans to travel on the Titanic, including a large photocopy of the newspaper article and the canceled deposit check.

 

[Thomas William Goldsmith]

I think that part of the rumour of Mr. Morgan's plans to return on the Titanic stem from his company owning the ship and it being the maiden voyage. Also the society papers of the day kept track of who travelled on what ship. This was one more way of establishing ones position in society. Travelling on the largest ship on its maiden voyage was certainly enough to persuade many to take this voyage even for the lower classes add in that he owned it may have had some influence on him. The coal strike may have had something to do with this also. Considering that other ships were cancelling trips. News papers are fallible also, so there is plenty of reasons for this rumour to have started and persisted. He certainly may have intended to take the voyage or he may have had intentions to take the Titanic at a later date. Just food for thought.