Samuel Halpern
Member
Reversing Engines, Unfair Criticism of Officer Murdoch
- Thread starter David Longinotti
- Start date
Arun Vajpey
Member
Careful Sam. People might take umbrage when such obvious commonsense facts are stated openly
. They will have plenty of opinions about why there was no need for Smith to take any of those precautions.Seriously, what is this childish obsession about fastest crossings and beating records? If a ship sliced 15 minutes off her sister's time or an hour off a rival company liner, they might crow about it for a while. Then a third liner will beat them both and what then? What does anyone gain by arriving 15 minutes earlier or an hour later in the larger scheme of things? IMO, those Blue Riband awards and such are nonsense; if I was a First Class (or any) passenger, comfort, facilities, food and above all safety would be my prime consideration in choosing a ship.
Just imagine what would happen today of British Airways announced that their London to New York flight time was 20 minutes faster than United Airlines and used that as a gimmick to try and sell more tickets.
Jim Currie
Member
Hello Arun.
2 minutes would certainly seem strange if the engineers were staning by to act. That was highly unlikely.
As for Boxhal's evidence?
In the US he said " I was just coming along the deck and almost abreast of the captain's quarters, and I heard the report of three bells. In the UK h said: " I heard the bells first....- Just coming out of the Officers quarters."
In fact.." almost abreast of the captain's quarters, " and " almost abreast of the captain's quarters," arr as near as danmit! is to swearing.
The distance between the entrance to the officers' quarters door to "just before the Captains's wharters " is 7 feet so almost abreast of the captain's quarters wasn't even 2 normal steps.
Boxhall then states " I was just approaching the bridge.[when impact took place.]
If, as the evidence of Fleet suggests, the time between the last bell and the
Testimony of Andrew BraesCareful Sam. People might take umbrage when such obvious commonsense facts are stated openly
Seriously, what is this childish obsession about fastest crossings and beating records? If a ship sliced 15 minutes off her sister's time or an hour off a rival company liner, they might crow about it for a while. Then a third liner will beat them both and what then? What does anyone gain by arriving 15 minutes earlier or an hour later in the larger scheme of things? IMO, those Blue Riband awards and such are nonsense; if I was a First Class (or any) passenger, comfort, facilities, food and above all safety would be my prime consideration in choosing a ship.
Just imagine what would happen today of British Airways announced that their London to New York flight time was 20 minutes faster than United Airlines and used that as a gimmick to try and sell more tickets.
Examined by Mr. BUTLER ASPINALL.
25283. Are you a retired Master mariner?
- Yes.
25284. You hold an Extra Master's certificate?
- Yes.
25285. Have you commanded steamers of the allan Line for the last 17 years?
- Yes.
25286. Have you heard the evidence of the last four Witnesses?
- Yes.
25287. Is your practice when you may be meeting ice at night similar to their practice?
- Just the same. I never slowed down so long as the weather was clear.
Examined by Sir ROBERT FINLAY.
25288. And did you hold your course?
- Yes, I kept my course.
25289. You kept your course and your speed?
- Yes.
25290. In your experience is that the universal practice in the Atlantic?
- I never knew any other practice.
(The witness withdrew.)"
To be wise after the event requires nothing unusual, to be wise before it is most unusual'
You can quote me.
Arun Vajpey
Member
Yes, that's what Boxhall testified. But as you have doubtless seen further in his statements to Senator Smith, Boxhall said and again confirmed that when he entered the bridge he saw Murdoch, Moody and Captain Smith all together there and the engine telegraph set to 'Full Astern'.
Forget about the telegraph for a moment but explain how Smith could have been there when Boxhall said that was very close to the bridge ( 7 feet as you have said yourself) when he heard the 3 bells? Please offer your opinion on that point only for the moment.
Samuel Halpern
Member
As they say here, Boxhall's testimony if full of holes like a slice of Swiss cheese. At the door or few steps beyond, if what Boxhall claimed was true, is only about 60 ft from the bridge, 12 to to 15 seconds away unless your on crutches, using a wheel chair or walker, or busy on your cellphone (which he obviously didn't have). In all that short period of time Boxhall's claims that he heard 3 bells, heard Murdoch's helm order and heard engine telegraph bells ring, and then feels the collision all before reaching the bridge. Yet, QM Olliver, who said he was on the amidships compass platform 250 ft back from the bridge, hears the same 3 bells, gets down from the platform and goes to the bridge 250 ft away, and then feels the ship strike just as he is enters the bridge where he sees Murdoch at the WTD switch.
So who do you believe, Boxhall, the ship's fourth officer, or Olliver, just a quartermaster?
To some, rank has its privileges.
Arun Vajpey
Member
Jim Currie
Member
Arun, Boxhall did not say he was very close to the bridge when he heard the three bells. Read the evidence again.
To understand this, and other things he said, you must plot his evidence on a plan of the boat deck. I have made such a plot additionally, I have asked a couple of young Sky Engineers visiting me to pace out a 20 feet measured distance. I asked them to walk at a modertate pace like Boxhall would have done and to walk like a seaman...with a slightly rolling gate. Both of them covered the distance of 20 feet in exactly 5.5 seconds. If you or Sam don't believe me, do your own expermient instead of Google-ing it. I would suggest that other members who might be reading this do the same.
In the following plot, I have used a walking pace of 3.7 feet per second. It speaks for itself. It also suggestes that for a minor discrepancy or so, Boxhall's evidence matches that of Hichens, Fleet and Oliver.
Arun Vajpey
Member
I am sorry Jim but with due respect to your professional experience, I cannot accept that explanation.
Boxhall stated repeatedly that he was passing the Captains quarters when he heard the 3-bells; from that moment onward, Murdoch saw the iceberg himself, quickly assessed its position in relation to the Titanic's line of travel. While he was doing that, Fleet phoned the bridge, Moody answered, took the message and passed it to Murdoch. By then Murdoch had already decided on the course of his action and yelled the "Hard-a-starboard!" order which Hichens acknowledged and started to rapidly turn the wheel to starboard. Fleet and Lee meanwhile looking at the approaching iceberg while Murdoch put the engine telegraph to full stop. The lookouts were able to make out the bow start to turn to port and thought that the ship might just miss the iceberg; but when the Titanic had swung somewhere between 1 and 2 points to port they all felt the grinding sideswipe as the collision occurred.
Whichever way one looks at it, the highlighted sequence of events would have taken 30 seconds at the very least, probably a bit more. It was just after the collision that Captain Smith reached the bridge and interacted with Murdoch.
As I said elsewhere, if Boxhall was in the officers' Quarters having tea (as claimed elsewhere) and did not exactly rush out when he heard the bells, that could explain how Smith was already on the bridge by the time Boxhall arrived.
Boxhall stated repeatedly that he was passing the Captains quarters when he heard the 3-bells; from that moment onward, Murdoch saw the iceberg himself, quickly assessed its position in relation to the Titanic's line of travel. While he was doing that, Fleet phoned the bridge, Moody answered, took the message and passed it to Murdoch. By then Murdoch had already decided on the course of his action and yelled the "Hard-a-starboard!" order which Hichens acknowledged and started to rapidly turn the wheel to starboard. Fleet and Lee meanwhile looking at the approaching iceberg while Murdoch put the engine telegraph to full stop. The lookouts were able to make out the bow start to turn to port and thought that the ship might just miss the iceberg; but when the Titanic had swung somewhere between 1 and 2 points to port they all felt the grinding sideswipe as the collision occurred.
Whichever way one looks at it, the highlighted sequence of events would have taken 30 seconds at the very least, probably a bit more. It was just after the collision that Captain Smith reached the bridge and interacted with Murdoch.
As I said elsewhere, if Boxhall was in the officers' Quarters having tea (as claimed elsewhere) and did not exactly rush out when he heard the bells, that could explain how Smith was already on the bridge by the time Boxhall arrived.
Samuel Halpern
Member
The diagram in post #37 above bears little to the evidence given, including that of Boxhall.
Boxhall: "At the time of the impact I was just coming along the deck and almost abreast of the captain's quarters, and I heard the report of three bells. Almost at the same time I heard the first officer give the order "Hard astarboard," and the engine telegraph rang." At the BI, he said he was just coming out of the quarters when he heard the 3 bells. You also show Boxhall see the telegraphs and noticing Smith pass him at 6 seconds after impact. (You do know Boxhall claimed the telegraphs were showing full astern for both engines, yet he also claimed his eyes were not yet night adapted. Hmmm?) QM Olliver said he was on the amidships platform when he heard the 3 bells, yet you show Olliver 7 seconds after impact abreast of boat #1. At your chosen pace for Boxhall, you have the impact coming at about 12 seconds after 3 bells. Yet by 19 seconds (12+7) you have Olliver by boat #1. Now that's quite an amazing run given that he had to get down from the platform and go the 200 ft or more to get to where you show him.
Oh by the way, Olliver said he was just entering the bridge as the ship struck and saw Murdoch by the WTD switch, and it was several seconds later when he saw the peak of the berg pass aft of the bridge wing.
Boxhall: "At the time of the impact I was just coming along the deck and almost abreast of the captain's quarters, and I heard the report of three bells. Almost at the same time I heard the first officer give the order "Hard astarboard," and the engine telegraph rang." At the BI, he said he was just coming out of the quarters when he heard the 3 bells. You also show Boxhall see the telegraphs and noticing Smith pass him at 6 seconds after impact. (You do know Boxhall claimed the telegraphs were showing full astern for both engines, yet he also claimed his eyes were not yet night adapted. Hmmm?) QM Olliver said he was on the amidships platform when he heard the 3 bells, yet you show Olliver 7 seconds after impact abreast of boat #1. At your chosen pace for Boxhall, you have the impact coming at about 12 seconds after 3 bells. Yet by 19 seconds (12+7) you have Olliver by boat #1. Now that's quite an amazing run given that he had to get down from the platform and go the 200 ft or more to get to where you show him.
Oh by the way, Olliver said he was just entering the bridge as the ship struck and saw Murdoch by the WTD switch, and it was several seconds later when he saw the peak of the berg pass aft of the bridge wing.
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Arun Vajpey
Member
There is also the time taken for Murdoch to ring the warning bell and then use the switch/lever to close the watertight doors. Can I please ask someone for how long was the duty officer obliged to press the warning bell button before touching the switch/lever to close the watertight doors? That time should be added to the 20 or so seconds for the doors to actually drop down to full closed position.
I feel that these times are important because both Hichens and Olliver separately concurred that when Captain Smith asked Murdoch to close the watertight doors, the latter replied that they were already closed. Past tense.
Since Smith asked that question after arriving on the bridge, it would mean that he had not seen Murdoch close the watertight doors. Murdoch's answer confirms that the doors were already closed before Smith arrived.
I feel that these times are important because both Hichens and Olliver separately concurred that when Captain Smith asked Murdoch to close the watertight doors, the latter replied that they were already closed. Past tense.
Since Smith asked that question after arriving on the bridge, it would mean that he had not seen Murdoch close the watertight doors. Murdoch's answer confirms that the doors were already closed before Smith arrived.
Samuel Halpern
Member
By the way, you show a distance of about 15 ft between where Boxhall heard Murdoch's helm order and where he feels the impact in post #37 above. At your swagger pace of 3.7 ft/sec, the time from helm order to impact now becomes 4 sec, hardly time to get the wheel hard over, and certainly no time for any change in the ship's heading. Just an observation my friend.
Samuel Halpern
Member
After 3976.
The Attorney-General: I have a notice which I will read, so as to get it on the note, which my friend has handed me. It is a notice which is pasted on the bridge on the watertight door apparatus.
The Commissioner: Where the button is?
The Attorney-General: Yes. "In case of emergency, to close watertight doors on tank top, press bell; push for 10 seconds to give alarm; then move switch to 'on' position and keep it there. Note: Doors cannot, however, be operated mechanically whilst switch is on."
Arun Vajpey
Member
Thanks Sam. That would mean that after he had given the helm order and operated the engine telegraph handle, Murdoch rang the warning bell for 10 seconds and then moved the door switch to the 'ON' position. It then took 20 seconds (I think you said somewhere) for the watertight doors to completely drop down and close. Murdoch had already completed all that when Captain Smith came onto the bridge because (as per both Olliver & Hichens' testimonies), when Smith ordered Murdoch to close the watertight doors, the latter confirmed that they were already closed.
Samuel Halpern
Member
The only thing Murdoch confirmed is that he had closed the switch. There were no indications, no light panel or such, that actually showed that the doors were all closed. Once he closed the switch, there would not have been a reason for him to stay where the switch control was. According to Hichens, right after the collision Murdoch ordered QM Olliver to take the time and a junior officer, probably Moody, to enter the event in the scrap log. This seems to be just before Smith arrived. I also don't think it actually took Smith a full minute to come onto the bridge. Maybe half that time, just like I don't believe it took a full 1/2 minute between 3-bells and the helm order as Hichens had said, or for Fleet to be at the phone for a full 1/2 minute at Fleet said he was. Got to be very careful about these subjective intervals, no matter who they came from. That's why I look at other things that are more measurable, like how long would it take someone like Olliver to actually get to bridge from compass platform at a brisk walking rate and allowing some seconds for response time.
I believe Arun that you said that you have my Strangers on the Horizon book. Look at my table 3-A for event timing surrounding the collision. It's fairly detailed and checked for consistency.
I believe Arun that you said that you have my Strangers on the Horizon book. Look at my table 3-A for event timing surrounding the collision. It's fairly detailed and checked for consistency.
Rancor
Member
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