Submarine activity on Titanic wreck
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Richard A. Krebes
Member
Andrew! I say, Andrew! Did you see if the plaque left on the Titanic's stern by Ballard's 1986 expedition was still there?
Interesting pics, btw. Shame the wreck didn't look like it did in 1986. Now THERE'S a sub ride to the T. I wish I could've taken.
Richard K.
Interesting pics, btw. Shame the wreck didn't look like it did in 1986. Now THERE'S a sub ride to the T. I wish I could've taken.
Richard K.
Andrew Rogers
Guest
Bunky,
No Worries!
Richard,
No. I'm ashamed to say we didn't even think to look for it. My only excuse is that there was just too much to see!
I'm not sure how many plaques have been placed on the wreck or who put them there but I do remember seeing one on a bollard close to the bow and another near the base of the telemotor. The one near the telemotor also had a bouquet of plastic flowers next to it.
You're right, it would have been great to go down in '86/'87. There was so much to see in '98 but there was some 4000 less items than Ballard might have seen.
The people who run the dive trips are going to the Bismarck in June this year, at only $37500 US you might be able to get in early on that one!!
You can take me with you if you like!
Bye for now,
Andrew
No Worries!
Richard,
No. I'm ashamed to say we didn't even think to look for it. My only excuse is that there was just too much to see!
I'm not sure how many plaques have been placed on the wreck or who put them there but I do remember seeing one on a bollard close to the bow and another near the base of the telemotor. The one near the telemotor also had a bouquet of plastic flowers next to it.
You're right, it would have been great to go down in '86/'87. There was so much to see in '98 but there was some 4000 less items than Ballard might have seen.
The people who run the dive trips are going to the Bismarck in June this year, at only $37500 US you might be able to get in early on that one!!
You can take me with you if you like!
Bye for now,
Andrew
I don't think I'd like to go down to the Bismarck, it's deeper again than Titanic, is much less-explored, and has a lot more sticking up from it...to say nothing of being a war grave. For all the anti-salvage talk that surrounds Titanic, at least a war grave is something hard and fast you can't argue about.
Richard A. Krebes
Member
HUH?! The BISMARCK?!?!
I thought Ballard did NOT release the exact coordinates of the wrecksite. Did somebody leak it?
Is this underseas tour group the one that uses the Mir's, btw?
Richard K.
I thought Ballard did NOT release the exact coordinates of the wrecksite. Did somebody leak it?
Is this underseas tour group the one that uses the Mir's, btw?
Richard K.
Michael H. Standart
Member
Some secrets don't keep for very long and it's not as if anyone can say national security was at issue here. The beans were probably spilled in the normal course of scientific discussions and discourse. Frankly, I'm surprised it kept for any length of time at all.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Jason Long
Guest
I may be alone in this view, but I believe that the Titanic site should be left alone. Maybe some Sonar and Camera fly-bys, but only once a year. The comment on how she was found, was she looked almost like the day she went down, granted in two pieces. But look at a picture on finding her vs a picture of her now, she is a shell that is degrading quicker each trip down. The constant trips are aggravating the algae and the bacteria into a feeding frenzy. They may have started a snack back in 1912, but now they are devouring it. I'm glad to have been able to see the Ship and to know what happened to her, at least in a way as to what happened. But she won't be there much longer and at the rate of our trips down to collect and catalog, we are in fact causing more damage to her now then when she first laid there.
I know I may be alone in this, but I'm happy with just the knowledge of her place of rest. I do believe that any piece, part or whole, is robbing the grave of not only the Majestic ship, but the over 1500 that died that night also. Would you steal the head stone from your GreatGrandmothers grave? It's just a stone, It's not like she owned it. She had to die to get it. I feel the same with the Titanic and her debris field, they are the head stones of the lost souls, they earned the ownership when the Titanic disappeared under the waves with most of them, and as she sailed to the bottom, She watched the others died on the surface as markers to her passage to the grave.
I'm sorry for any misspellings and any sentences that don't seem to connect right, I feel very bitter with the way the site is riddled with grave robbers that claim it in the name of science, They leave the mass graves of Hitler's camps alone yet attack the Titanic like vultures. Now it is time to let the Lady Titanic, her Crew and Passengers rest.
These are my feelings and opinions only.... Please feel free to comment on any of it...
Like you need permission, after all the is a board to speak on and about the Mighty Titanic....
Thank you for listening (reading) the ramblings of a lost soul in the wrong era.
Jason Long
I know I may be alone in this, but I'm happy with just the knowledge of her place of rest. I do believe that any piece, part or whole, is robbing the grave of not only the Majestic ship, but the over 1500 that died that night also. Would you steal the head stone from your GreatGrandmothers grave? It's just a stone, It's not like she owned it. She had to die to get it. I feel the same with the Titanic and her debris field, they are the head stones of the lost souls, they earned the ownership when the Titanic disappeared under the waves with most of them, and as she sailed to the bottom, She watched the others died on the surface as markers to her passage to the grave.
I'm sorry for any misspellings and any sentences that don't seem to connect right, I feel very bitter with the way the site is riddled with grave robbers that claim it in the name of science, They leave the mass graves of Hitler's camps alone yet attack the Titanic like vultures. Now it is time to let the Lady Titanic, her Crew and Passengers rest.
These are my feelings and opinions only.... Please feel free to comment on any of it...
Thank you for listening (reading) the ramblings of a lost soul in the wrong era.
Jason Long
Hello Jason,
I do fully agree with your statements. I have nothing to add. Only the fact that Titanic survivors, first of all Miss Hart, were very upset by taking objects from the wrecksite to the surface. We must remember that RMS Titanic is not a purpose for commercial circus like the ridiculous salvage of the "Big piece". I'm sure I would start a lawsuit when I saw property from my great-grandparents in exhibitions through the whole world. Great-grandparents are something more different that far ancestors from the Middle ages. We have pictures of them, we know their stories and maybe even other things who are still in the family. I fully agree with Miss Hart to call the so-called "researchers" laughable pirats and thieves.
So this was said. I also like to know if there are people who don't agree. Don't be affraid to react!
Regards,
Rolf
I do fully agree with your statements. I have nothing to add. Only the fact that Titanic survivors, first of all Miss Hart, were very upset by taking objects from the wrecksite to the surface. We must remember that RMS Titanic is not a purpose for commercial circus like the ridiculous salvage of the "Big piece". I'm sure I would start a lawsuit when I saw property from my great-grandparents in exhibitions through the whole world. Great-grandparents are something more different that far ancestors from the Middle ages. We have pictures of them, we know their stories and maybe even other things who are still in the family. I fully agree with Miss Hart to call the so-called "researchers" laughable pirats and thieves.
So this was said. I also like to know if there are people who don't agree. Don't be affraid to react!
Regards,
Rolf
Michael H. Standart
Member
Hi Jason, In regards biological activity on the Titanic, check out Dr. Roy Cullimore's artical in the ET Research section. This particular deterioration would be going on at a steadily accelerating pace whether the wreck was visited or not. It's not human activity stirring anything up. The iron eating micro-organisms which are doing the job have been pretty well entrenched going on 88+ years now.
You're not alone in your opinion that the wreck should be left alone. Opinions vary however, and some people...on both sides...are decidedly emotional about it.
For myself, I have no problem with scientific expeditions and investigations which can and have increased our knowladge of the Titanic and ultimately the details of what happened to her. I have massive problems with the salvage which is being done which is treasure seeking at best, or as in the case of The Big Peice, a silly three ring circus which qualifies as little more then an expensive, dangerous, and pointless stunt.
However, it won't be ending any time soon. RMS Titanic Inc., as salvor in possession has to continue with these operations in order to hold their claim to the ship. If they don't, short of action by international treaty or convention, somebody else can move in who will probably be worse.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
You're not alone in your opinion that the wreck should be left alone. Opinions vary however, and some people...on both sides...are decidedly emotional about it.
For myself, I have no problem with scientific expeditions and investigations which can and have increased our knowladge of the Titanic and ultimately the details of what happened to her. I have massive problems with the salvage which is being done which is treasure seeking at best, or as in the case of The Big Peice, a silly three ring circus which qualifies as little more then an expensive, dangerous, and pointless stunt.
However, it won't be ending any time soon. RMS Titanic Inc., as salvor in possession has to continue with these operations in order to hold their claim to the ship. If they don't, short of action by international treaty or convention, somebody else can move in who will probably be worse.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Dear Michael,
You said: "It's not human activity stirring anything up". Would you deny the fact that RMS Titanic Inc. broke Titanics crewsnest during their mission to rob the shipbell from the mast? Seems not very biological huh?! I wished that Mr Ballard claimed the wreck when he found her. But he's too late now.
Regards,
Rolf
You said: "It's not human activity stirring anything up". Would you deny the fact that RMS Titanic Inc. broke Titanics crewsnest during their mission to rob the shipbell from the mast? Seems not very biological huh?! I wished that Mr Ballard claimed the wreck when he found her. But he's too late now.
Regards,
Rolf
Michael H. Standart
Member
Put in context, I was referring to biological activity. The subs had nothing to do with that. The micro-organisms will just keep on doing their own thing regardless, as they have been for nearly nine decades.
As to Ballard claiming the wreck, what would he do then? Under salvage laws, he would be obliged to salvage would he not? That or lose his claim to the wreck. Perhaps one of the lawyers on this board can answer that one better.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
As to Ballard claiming the wreck, what would he do then? Under salvage laws, he would be obliged to salvage would he not? That or lose his claim to the wreck. Perhaps one of the lawyers on this board can answer that one better.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
It's true that the rusticules are destroying Titanic slowly, but that is no reason for RMS inc. to make the damage worser with their own acts.
I'm very curious if there is someone who can explain me what happened if Ballard claimed the wreck. I allways believed that the one who found a wreck, may claim it. There are no salvage laws who can stop that. I've seen this once in an interview with Mr Ballard. He told that he regret it so much (though we have nothing to this words) and wished claimed Titanic so that everything would still be on the same place as when he found Titanic.
BTW, I thought that it is still not clear if Titanic is in international waters or in the VS/Canadian area. Has this some impact on the salvage laws?
Regards,
Rolf
I'm very curious if there is someone who can explain me what happened if Ballard claimed the wreck. I allways believed that the one who found a wreck, may claim it. There are no salvage laws who can stop that. I've seen this once in an interview with Mr Ballard. He told that he regret it so much (though we have nothing to this words) and wished claimed Titanic so that everything would still be on the same place as when he found Titanic.
BTW, I thought that it is still not clear if Titanic is in international waters or in the VS/Canadian area. Has this some impact on the salvage laws?
Regards,
Rolf
David G. Brown
RIP
Although I do not know all of the details, I do know that the "Law of Finds" applies only to natural objects found at sea (e.g. whale ambergris). It usually does not apply to human artifacts (such as ships) unless the original owner has abandoned the property. In such case, the property would, in legal terms, have reverted back to its "natural" state.
The ownership of Titanic was never abandoned. Courts have ruled that the simple act of not asserting a claim of title on a sunken ship for a long period of years does not constitute abandonment of ownership. As I understand it, the title of Titanic went to the insurance company who later (after Ballard's discovery) sold it to the current owners.
The most Ballard (or any other wreck diver) could have done is asserted a claim for salvage of the vessel. However, that would have required making an effort to actually salvage the vessel and/or its contents. And, just because a salvor might have raised the Titanic, that would not have automatically conveyed right of ownership. The rightful owner would still retain rights to the salvaged vessel, but the salvor would have a monetary claim against the salvaged property.
-- David G. Brown
The ownership of Titanic was never abandoned. Courts have ruled that the simple act of not asserting a claim of title on a sunken ship for a long period of years does not constitute abandonment of ownership. As I understand it, the title of Titanic went to the insurance company who later (after Ballard's discovery) sold it to the current owners.
The most Ballard (or any other wreck diver) could have done is asserted a claim for salvage of the vessel. However, that would have required making an effort to actually salvage the vessel and/or its contents. And, just because a salvor might have raised the Titanic, that would not have automatically conveyed right of ownership. The rightful owner would still retain rights to the salvaged vessel, but the salvor would have a monetary claim against the salvaged property.
-- David G. Brown
Michael H. Standart
Member
Rolf, in the Discovery/Savlvage/Exploration/Exhibits folder, go to "The Court's Jurisdiction" thread for an explaination of salvage laws and jurisdiction. The Titanic lies in International waters which does have some bearing on this matter....and my impression is that in this instance, she becomes fair game for the first one who can get there and stake a claim.
The legal principle involved is jus gentium which is the common law of maritime nations, and which all maritime nations use.
Had she gone down in Canadian waters, I would think that the Canadian government could have asserted jurisdiction and ended the matter befor it would have had a chance to get started.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
The legal principle involved is jus gentium which is the common law of maritime nations, and which all maritime nations use.
Had she gone down in Canadian waters, I would think that the Canadian government could have asserted jurisdiction and ended the matter befor it would have had a chance to get started.
Cordially,
Michael H. Standart
Hi There,
David: If I understand it clearly, you can only get the rights for owning a wrecksite when you salvage (parts) of the vessel or artifacts from it. Do you know if the survivors of a maritime disaster can't stop the salvage of a vessel according to some laws etc.?
Michael: I remember reading somewhere that Canada and the US had some words about the area in which the wreck of Titanic is. In the first moment they both believed that the wrecksite was in there area. I agree with you about the point that the Canadian government would have claimed her when Titanic was in their waters.
Regards,
Rolf
David: If I understand it clearly, you can only get the rights for owning a wrecksite when you salvage (parts) of the vessel or artifacts from it. Do you know if the survivors of a maritime disaster can't stop the salvage of a vessel according to some laws etc.?
Michael: I remember reading somewhere that Canada and the US had some words about the area in which the wreck of Titanic is. In the first moment they both believed that the wrecksite was in there area. I agree with you about the point that the Canadian government would have claimed her when Titanic was in their waters.
Regards,
Rolf