Submarine activity on Titanic wreck

[David G. Brown]

If I write much about this topic you will have the rare opportunity of visualizing me opening my mouth to change feet.

My understanding is that the salvor never gains rights of ownership unless he purchases them. The original owner maintains those rights. Once the salvage is complete, the owner must pay the salvor for his work. Courts are very lenient regarding how much pay they award. This is done as an incentive to encourage salvors. Until he is paid, the salvor has a lien on the property in the amount of his cash award.

The survivors of a marine disaster cannot stop salvage. After all, the vessel may be leaking some toxic substance, or it may be a hazard to navigation. Under these circumstances, even if the ship were a "graveyard," it would have to be salvaged. Emotions have little standing under Admiralty law. If the survivors (or surviving heirs) have any rights, it would be to the ownership of the personal property lost in the shipwreck. As I understand it, if a salvor were to find the "Heart of the Ocean," it would still belong to Rose.

Ships which sink within territorial waters raise more complicated issues. Many nations (including the United States) pass ownership of a sunken ship to some governmental entity. I know of a case here on the Great Lakes where a woman has been trying to raise her father's tugboat for years and is being fought by the "historic preservationists."

Now, I'm going to quit while I before I reveal my full ignorance of salvage law.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Hi Rolf, I have a very fuzzy memory of those "words" between the British and the Canadians, but since the ship was located 400 miles away from the nearest land, they could hardly claim it was in their respective territorial waters. 12 miles is the accepted standard with economic zones going no more then 200 miles.

The rest of the details I'll leave to the lawyers.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Jason Long]

Hello All,
I agree that the scientist believe that these organisms will continue to "eat" the ship no matter the visits. But my questions are this: The ship was found in 1985 right? She looked very different from today, Granted, she had the rusticals, but you could see things like the railing in the front clearly.. Am I to believe that in 73 years, these organisms just ate the inside and now that we bring over a million watts of light, that even at that depth creates heat, and stirring the silt, don't change the outcome to the rate of consumption... Plus, if you were told that our many visits were the cause of her degrading state and that each visit speeds that up, would you still want to continue the trips? would the people that voice their opinions still show reserves, or would the world cry out about the fact that they are destroying a landmark and a grave site... In 73 years the hull held up and was in great shape, even Ballard said himself it was like a slightly rusty version, but still held that Glory. After 73 years, she held up to the ocean, now they say within a few more years she'll be a spot of rust on the ocean floor. How come she lasts 73 plus years, then we find her just as she is about to collapse in on her self.... I think its odd. Plus, it's a fact that the world does fine with out human help, we show up and the variables change...
But hey, this is a topic I could argue about for a long time... and I go on visual and instinct not what some guy is paid to tell people...

I've seen to many different stories about the cause of her sinking to care anymore about why. From brittle metal to bad rivets to even just bad placement of the plates and them being to big... One scientist states it's bad metal after doing test on a piece that has sat on th ocean floor in the cold and being eaten and says that it wouldn't change the fact of if it was brittle or not... Sorry, I would think that if the Iron was eaten out of it, it would change the density and ability to hold it self together, but hey, I'm just a non-scientific person that can't get a few (million) bucks together to dive down and then make others believe that I'm just taking from the debris field and it's only for history sake..

Titanic Inc got the rights after White Star Line didn't pay the fees.. The ship was still owned by White Star. Any ship that sinks is still the owners property. They hold all rights to her as long as they pay the fees to hold her. Especially in territorial waters... it's a fine line for ships like the Titanic, but they are still owned, Sinking does not drop the claim. Only abandonment does that, and we know that she was not abandoned. White Star failed to pay these fees and Titanic Inc paid them and in turn got the rights. Anyone can claim a ship, but to make it legal, you have to see if she is still owned and if not, pay the fees, most salvage laws were ment for ships found afloat. Sunken ships are still property of their owners until they release, give, sell, or abandon their claims on the ship.... Sorry, got a big breath before typing that long winded speech..

As for the raising of the "large Piece", that was to much, first attempt, Titanic reclaimed it, and almost reclaimed it on the second try, but stubborn glory hounds won out... Yes, I'd like to see all the pieces that are around the world in museums, but I would rather just see photos of it on the ocean floor or pictures of them taken back in 1912... Just cuz it's from the field outside the ship changes nothing, it was in the ship. Would they be going into the ship to get it if she went down whole, yes I believe they would...

Sorry all, I don't know where my urge to argue about rights and moral standing comes from, but I do believe that some where I am or was connected to this ship in some way. Something makes my heart beat faster and harder when I see them rip another part of the grave site from the ocean depths.... I feel a part of myself get ripped off also... I know not why, but I do....
I implore all to view their opinion about this, either my view or the opposite, either is fine, Plus.... We get to see the other side of the story from a new perspective... If you don't agree with my view, please tell me, I'll try my hardest to change your view... (Just Kidding)

I won't lie to you and say that if I was offered a piece of titanic history from the site,that I wouldn't take it, hell I'd grab it quicker then even superman could see, but Only because it was already stole and it wouldn't make another buck in ticket fees.. Course, my problem with the roving Titanic Museum is this, what if the vehicle wrecks, what then will they do, go get more to show.... Granted, I may be putting my foot in my mouth, if I haven't already, but I don't know if it still is a roving museum, is it?

Well, now that I've babbled like a school boy after seeing my first naked woman, I'll let you all return to messages that mean more.

Once again I apologize for any misspellings, grammar, or sentences that just don't sound right, I have a spell checker, but it can't fix the screw ups of this mind.

Jason Long

A soul born in the wrong era and condemned to babble about the past!!!


P.S. If you want to talk more about this or just want to tell me to shut up, Please Email me at [email protected]

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Jason, No need to "shut up" as you say. A lot of people have strong opinions about this matter so you have plenty of company.

In regards bacteria, living where they do, they aren't really dependant on heat or sunlight for their survival. Little of the former and none of the latter gets down there. And despite the number of dives, the subs aren't down there that long and their presence isn't year round or everywhere at once, so their presence as a factor would be negligable.

The damage being caused by iron eating bacteria is a cold fact, not a theory. See Dr. Cullimore's fine artical on the subject. The source of his funding isn't all that relevent since his published work still has to survive the pityless scrutiny of peer reveiw by other scientists in order to gain acceptance. All the money in the world won't make that go away. Were his work so much bull pucky, those who would know it would be screaming the fact from the mountain tops.

I think you'll find that the deterioration is speeding up because of the ready food source(The Titanic's steel) and the fact that their numbers multiply over time. One bug becomes two, which becomes four, which becomes eight, then sixteen, to thirty two to sixty four and so on. Soon enough, your talking about a lotta bugs! Over time, a few become trillions and over 89 years, the rate of consumption begins to snowball.

Obtaining uncorrupted steel isn't really a problem as the plates were pretty thick. The bacteria start on the surface, but can't really work their way in very quickly. Scrape away the outer damaged layers and you get to the undamaged steel.

While the human presence is too infrequent to have much effect on the bacteria, the same can hardly be said of the gross physical damage caused by all the poking around. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like it's going to stop any time soon.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[David G. Brown]

Titanic is at the center of a paradox. Whether we leave it there or not, it won't be there in a little while. The only way some portion of the ship and its contents can be preserved is by raising them and conserving them...which in its way is a form of destruction similar to a shipbreaker's hammer removing pieces. If it sits undisturbed on the bottom, it will deteriorate and disappear. Taking pieces away, even for historic preservation, destroys the ship at a faster rate. There is no answer to this paradox. No course of action is entirely acceptable to everyone.

-- David G. Brown

 

[Andrew Rogers]

Richard,
To answer your question from a few days ago, Yes it is the same tour group that uses the Mirs. I don't think I would want go down in anything else. The Russians maintain the subs in perfect order, thankfully a lot better than their spacestation cousin!
The Bismarck settled about 600m deeper than Titanic and as far as I know there has been no manned submersible dive to the wreck as yet. The June expedition will be quite an occasion. I assume that no salvage right has been claimed over the wreck so it will be interesting to see where the tour group stands in relation to touching any items from it.

Jason,
What does a naked woman look like?
Seriously though. Michael is correct when he mentions the human presence not being a year round concern.
There is a weather window of about 8 - 10 weeks in July, Aug, Sept when it is practical to dive to the Titanic wreck. This and the almost prohibitive cost of the dive operation will ensure that the site will never be overrun.

Rolf,
Regarding the right to salvage; the first company (can't recall names, sorry) to salvage items from the wreck in 1987 was unable to put together another expedition in the next 5-6 years and subsequently lost out to the next vulture that was hovering around (later to be known as RMST). All they had to do was to produce a single wine decanter to the court and bingo!
I like the thought of Ballard claiming a right to salvage the wreck (as if he would)! I wonder if he regrets not taking control of the situation when he had the chance.
If he had the right to salvage he could have salvaged a bare minimum (coal, plates etc), mapped and photographed the site, organized the Russians to handle the once year tourist expeditions to view the wreck, while they are there they can salvage enough items to keep the court happy, the tourists cover the cost of the dives the wreck gets serviced and a few items can be restored and displayed for the public on the surface!

Must go, Baby's crying!

Andrew.

 

[Jason Long]

Hello,
See this is why I'm starting to love this site more, even being told that I'm full of it, It sounds like I have some idea about what I'm talking about, thank you

Seriously though, I have to agree to the facts but that doesn't mean I have to like it...

I don't know about it all being facts and having to go Through pears in order to be put out for the public, if that was true, we wouldn't have drugs on the market and then removed because some other scientist decided to look at it again... But hey, I spoke long enough about the scientific stuff that I really have no knowledge about.. I don't know about the 1 + 1 then 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc... I do agree that all bugs do multiply, but 73 years and she's fine then in the last 17 she turns to a pile of iornless slag... Don't know, but I'm not going to drag a dead horse down the road to continue this, I don't have all the facts and I don't pretend to, like I said before, this is visual and gut instinct... But thank you all for the way you have responded, I left myself open to a land of verbal hurt. I think I know more about this topic and as I read more messages from this site, I learn that yes I do know some things about it, but not as much as I'd like to pretend I do...
Even if I never say this again... I'm honored to have met you and chatted with you all... And Thank you for all the info to date....

Here's a statement I live by
"The Titanic was destine to never make it to New York, She was almost stopped in the Harbor by a ship bearing the name of her destination... Was it a warning or a premonition?"
Yes, I'm full of Sh!+, but I'm happy to be that way..

I still do believe that the trips down do have some type of effect, it will never change for me, How can you prove something 2 & 1/2 miles down. We barely have the ability to even go that deep and we are now experts on the effects of the pressure, lack of sunlight, darkness, and rate of bacterial feeding... Come on, we haven't even mapped the world or learned all that is on our own planet and we've been here for a few years now, and the ocean is still the biggest mystery. I will concede that scientist should have a better chance to know more about it then me, but how can anyone say without a doubt, and be for sure about something that we still don't know enough about? I know that you are right about the effects and stuff, but all I'm saying is this, Is there even a remote chance that our trips down there, granted, only a few times a year for the last 17, which has a different variable to then the 73 years before it... Isn't there a chance that those trips cause a change in the feeding habits and rate of said feeding? You all sound more knowledgeable about this than me, but I can't and won't believe that a race that only uses 10% of their brains can be that knowledgeable about things that are a force more powerful than we can even imagine... sorry

But I will also say this: "You guys are good!"
You really do know what you are talking about.

Thanks Again
Jason Long
(Lost soul to a different era but, still continues to believe he knows more of this era!)

 

[Jim Trebowski]

what bothers me is the fact that RMST used to claim its goal was to recover items from the ocean floor for the sole purpose of exhibiting to the public, but now have done a turn-around and stated that they want to sell items for a profit. How ironic..what once belonged to the very wealthy will be returned to a new generation of very wealthy people..never to be seen by the general public. SHEESH.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Is there a chance that all the visits could have changed the rate at which the bacteria feeds? I would have to say no...unless the whole area was abruptly flooded with millions of gallons of Lysol. They just do their thing whether we're there or not.

Nobody said that the human presence had no impact, by the way. Obviously, it has. Items have been removed from the wreck site and some physical damage has been done by all the poking around. Trouble is, the bacteria just couldn't care less about that. So long as they have a food source, they're happy.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart