Taking more artifacts from the wreck

[Michael H. Standart]

I may be mistaken, but I think that "Trust" in the business sense had a rather different meaning then what our understanding of such would be today.

As to the courts speaking, the one in Virginia is the one overseeing the matter...and it is acting in accords to existing maritime and international law and agreements. Again, I'll have to defer to a qualified attorney on this, and I hope one or more who are members of this board will speak up and clarify things. (Joe Shomie, where are you?)

As to continuing ownership and salvage rights, that much holds up only as long as the lawful salvor-in-posession (In this case, RMS Titanic Inc.) continues with salvage operations of some kind. If they lose interest, or go belly up, the titanic becomes fair game for some new contenders. Not the most comforting thought when you mull it over for a spell. RMS Titanic isn't much loved by everybody here,(There are doubtless a few exceptions) but would a new comer be an improvement?

Probably not.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Gavin Murphy]

M,

As a point of clarification, you are right. The IMM was a trust in the business sense. It is a term that is uniquely American (alto well known elsewhere), and has nothing to do with trusts in the sense of trusts, trustees, beneficiaries, etc. It is now considered a somewhat dated term, alto antitrust is probably better known now as the term to use when talking about competition laws.

A trust is a large company that has or attempts to gain control of a monopoly position on a market. This is what JPM was trying to do with IMM on the North Atlantic.

How could we forget about Teddy Roosevelt (sp?) and the trustbusters??

Regards,

G

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Dear G and M,
Sorry if my understanding of Trusts was off a bit, but in answer to your question G, that is where my comment on the salvage issue and the trust thing came up to begin with. I believe that M had mentioned that JP had owned White Star making it an American owned operation. But I think just like a corporation operates a little differently from a company, I still believe that in international circles that a trust was different from purchasing the company outright. It has to do with investments and shares, control, and taxes and what not. And I am sorry for the poor example of the death and trustees thingy, but I believe that a trust at that time works in a similar way only without the use of beneficiairies but use investors instead, but I plan to ask at work tomorrow and see if I can find out what the difference was.

As I said, I do not have any law background and you wish to have a correct answer and not a guess at an answer.
Maureen.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Mo, what was called a trust then appears to refer to the idea of a corperation in current usage. Back then, "Trust" was synonymous with "Monopoly".

In J.P. Morgan's case, the IMM was an attempt on his part to gain control of the North Atlantic shipping lines and the trade that went along with the deal, much as Gavin has already explained. Since ownership of IMM was confined largely to Morgan and a few of his cronies, he was for all practical intents and perposes the owner of the Titanic.

It might strike some as odd, but the loss of the Titanic affected the man very deeply. According to Wyn Craig Wade's book, a reporter finally tracked the man down in France and asked him about the financial loss of the Titanic. Morgan answered thus;" Oh, someone pays, but there is no such thing as money losses in existance. Think of the lives that have been mowed down and of the terrible deaths."

How do you like that? The "heartless" moneyman was the one who touched on the one thing that was really important in all of this while the reporter was the one interested in the entry in the financial ledger.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Thanks Michael, that was a very interesting post. Especially the one regarding JP Morgan. Guess I never did understand post-civil war history in school. Couldn;t get past the sailing ships into steel ships. Wasn't it Virginia with the Merrimak or one of those that they placed steel on a wooden ship and tried to make it into a submarine or something like that. Oh well.

So I appreciate you and Gavin hanging in there with me while I foundered. You are a great man Michael! Thanks.

LOL, Enjoy your day.
Maureen.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Actually, it was the steam frigate Merrimack which was converted into the ironclad CSS Virginia. The Merrimack had been moored at the then Gosport Shipyard (Now Portsmouth Naval Shipyard in Portsmouth Va.) After Virginia secceeded from the Union, the frigate was one of several ships which couldn't be moved for lack of any crew to do the job, so the Union Navy chaps set fire to it and the rest of the shipyard.

They kind of bunged up the job too, as they failed to destroy the drydock. The Merrimack had burned down to the waterline, but there was enough of the hull left to raise and convert to an ironclad warship. Even worse, the machinary was still intact.

The hull was taken into that drydock, repaired as far as they were able and the ironclad structure added on. The iron was obtained by way of scrapping sections of railroad track and adding it on to the ship.

Of course, it never did work right...salt water isn't good for machinary...but it worked well enough to sink the USS Cumberland, and the USS Congress and chase the USS Minnisota aground in shallow water befor being forced to withdraw. Had the USS Monitor not arrived in the night just in time to protect the wooden warships (She almost sank in a storm on the way down) the Minnisota would have been easy meat for the Virginia.

By the way, the drydock where the Virginia was converted still exists and is in service at the Portsmouth Naval Shipyard. I've seen it several times. They even have a plaque at the head of the dock commemmorsting the fact. Forget about going to see it as it's in the industrial area of the shipyard which is closed to the public.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Thanks Michael for that great information. The Washington Navy Ship Yard has a museum that has many models of ships on display and is open to the public. But I did not know (or remember is probably more the case) that the ship was rebuilt in Portsmouth.

Are you aware that many folks (especially many of the marine/navy-sailing-guys) on this Board deeply respect the wealth of knowledge that you have Michael? They speak very highly of you in private messages. Just thought that I would share that with you.

Enjoy your day Michael and thanks so much for teaching me a lot!
Maureen.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

One of these days, I'll have to visit the Washington Navy Yard. I understand they have a destroyer there open to the public. An old Forrest Sherman class ship. Unfortunately, the name escapes me at the moment.

As to my wealth of knowladge, as Heinlien's Michael Valantine Smith said in "Stranger In A Strange Land", I am but an egg. As much as I've learned here, I'm just happy I have something useful to share from time to time.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

I hate to admit this Michael, but I have actually been on that ship...but you could shove bamboo shoots under my finger nails and I still would not be able to tell you the name of it. I love ships, I'm just terrible with names.

And on your humble statements above, you're a good egg Michael Standart!

If you come up to DC, let me know and perhaps we can get together.

Enjoy your day.
Maureen.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Hi Mo, I was thinking about it last night...AFTER I had logged off of course...and I seem to recall that the ship's name is the USS Barry. She's luckier then most of her sisters. Most of them have gone to the scrapyard or have been expended as targets in wargames. As far as I know, there are only three survivors out of the entire class. I'll have to check.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Dear Michael,

The ship has tours, but I would check before I came because there are times when it is closed for routine maintenance and stuff. The Museum has been re-done and was lookign quite nic even when it was nearly finished last I saw it a few years back. So I can imagine that it is really a wonderful museum. The models are wonderful and have detailed histories posted.

And yes, if you find out about the status of the existing class ships, I would be interested in knowing.

Thanks and enjoy your day.
Maureen.

 

[Michael H. Standart]

Of the other two survivors of the Forrest Sherman class, the Edson is with the Intrepid museum in New York harbor, The other one...I beleive it's the Turner Joy...is a museum at Bremerton.

A very few others of the class are still afloat, but serve as test hulks or target ships.

Cordially,
Michael H. Standart

 

[Maureen Zottoli]

Thanks so much Michael. You are super for finding that out!
Maureen.

 

[Ralph Cook]

Hello to ever one making post here. I own the Titanic Deck Chair that was auctioned on Ebay and the History Channel. And wanted you to know the chair is at the Ship of Dreams Exhibition in Orlando Flordia. We did not sell this chair.

Ralph